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 Dead or Alive diesel

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David Grantham




PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:57 pm

Sparkeswood, thank you for your kind offer, that would be most helpful.
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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:10 pm

I might be able to do a few tomorrow,hopefully.If not,at the weekend.It's locked in the shed as it's a bit vicious Very Happy
I found the metal gear vibration quite alarming at first which is why I tried the pulley and belt method,even though it was not recommended.I now know that the belt and pulley method doesn't work and returned to metal cogs. Embarassed
I found that the alignment was quite critical on my model,perhaps due to my chassis being built of paxoline (which has a bit of flex to it).With the adjuster I appear to have no major wear on the cogs and it gives a pleasant jet like whine on acceleration.I did grease them once.Luckily I had safety glasses on.Looked like I'd come straight from a very deep coalface Wink


http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/troybetts/live%20diesel/live%20diesel%20chassis%203.jpg
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:24 am

I' m not very much into mechanics and perhaps it is mentioned before but would a cardan shaft be a solution?

Somerhing like this:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cardan-joint_spline-shaft_topview_transparent_animated.gif

I asume this will adapt also to the movements made by the flexibility of the chassis.

_________________
Paul pirat
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:31 am

Paulus wrote:
I' m not very much into mechanics and perhaps it is mentioned before but would a cardan shaft be a solution?

Somerhing like this:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cardan-joint_spline-shaft_topview_transparent_animated.gif

I asume this will adapt also to the movements made by the flexibility of the chassis.

Yes, it probably would, but it might be overkill. It also requires some length to work properly. But it is an elegant bit of engineering.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:12 am

I tried two types of universal joints (as the nice animated gif) one a simple plastic and brass item from Graupner and the other made from hardened steel and nylon from a specialist manufacture.
Both failed.

The result of coupling trials a few years ago.


But thinking back David I don't believe I tried an Oldham type coupling.

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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:07 am

There is an interesting video on the Jerry Hyde engine on Youtube that reveals some of the interior and shows the coupling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSwha_Ug7sk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Also some inside pictures of the model on his website:

http://www.hydeoutmountainlivesteam.com/

Like the backward/forward lever and the cooling fan.

_________________
Paul pirat
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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:43 pm

Here are the pictures as promised.Not sure if they'll be any use but it shows how I cured my vibrating cogs Shocked



A bearing was placed on the motor shaft,sleeved with copper strip and soldered onto an M4 bolt.



This was past throught the chassis with adjusting nuts to raise or lower the cog mesh.



The motor does not sit perfectly in line with the engine either.It's slightly offset.



This was just my simple but effective way of dealing with the cogs.It does make a massive difference when they are set up correctly.Hope this helps.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:02 pm

Thanks very much for taking the trouble to display photographs of your adjustable bearing.
on reflection I think the destruction of my gearbox was probably due to the masses and forces involved in using a 4 stroke and a large 11 pole motor, rather than the meshing.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Just testing the following

http://www.motionco.co.uk/pulleys-belts-timing-belts-c-25_38.html

For those with a requirement for high mass on board electric start and 4 stroke this may provide a solution combing gearing, coupling, quietness and no need to mesh to high tolerences.

Time will tell for sure.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 pm

Latest incarnation of my failed attempt to build an electrically started 4 stroke







Como gearbox lasted for about 15 starts before shedding teeth just like the hardened steel spur and pinion gears before that.
The oldham coupling appeared to work very satisfactorily. The main way forward without reverting to pull start, BL motors and 2 strokes would appear to be a belt drive with about a 2.5 to 1 differential on the pulleys.

As concluded before it requires a lot of torque too start the 4 stroke, which means a lot of DC motor mass and a lot of stress and also I wonder how damaging the one power cycle in every 2/4 strokes is on the transmission.

I will try the belt drive option and if I cant get that to work I will maybe have to resort back to pull start and two strokes.
Unless someone very clever can recommend a BL with enough torque that will start an OS FS30 and generate 12volts at 3K rpm.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:15 pm

So the Oldham coupling seems successful. That's something positive and useful to others as well.

I have a large, mutli pole high torque 24vdc 180w motor that I was going to use as a starter generator a long while ago. It has fitted a small toothed pulley for a belt drive.
It came as a brand new spare for an electric scooter.

You can have it if you wish. It will turn sufficiently on 12 volts to start a 2 stroke.



Because it is 24volts you will only need to run the glow plug engine at very low speeds to produce sufficient traction voltage and current.

I can bring it to RailExpo. I could post it but it will heavy.

I haven't tried a BLDC motor turning over a glow plug engine yet. It is on my to do list.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:01 am

Tx Carl. If it is convenient to get it to Pontoise that would be great, we can swap parcels there.

I just wonder if this might be an alternative solution

http://www.mfacomodrills.com/pdfs/960D-965D%20series.pdf

Two issues I guess. Would an 850 at 2.1 reduction start the 4 stroke and is the shaft bearing arrangement of benefit as opposed to suspending the belt from 2 shafts supported at one end only.

Would a torque wrench give me an indication of the force required to turn the motor ?
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Clockwork Annie



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:48 pm

Having owned a Matchless 350 single in my mispent youth I do wonder if it's possible to arrange an exhaust valve lifter on these O.S. 4 stroke engines. I have a FS26S 4.41cc O.S 4 stroke engine I'd like to use in an IC loco, but I've already noticed just how surprisingly fierce the compression is on these little engines.
Someone suggested to me that I might need to fit a flywheel to even out the power strokes and that's something I'm considering doing. The question is of course, - how big should the flywheel be?

I don't think a torque wrench would be very useful even if it was one of those little inch/pounds ones. I think a better way to measure it would be with a length of non stretch cord wrapped around a suitable hub on the crankshaft and using a spring scale to measure the pull needed to make the crankshaft rotate.

_________________
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:54 pm

Carl, can you tell me if the belt pulley, on your scooter motor, fits a 3m belt. I have a selection of these belts and pulleys and you are welcome to have/borrow them for your testing. Having a selection of sizes will alllow you to experiment with various ratios without any unnecessary purchases. I will bring to Pontoise.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:38 pm

I can't remember exactly what size belt fits the pulley but I will measure it later.

Thanks for the offer.

I think we will need to set aside some 'development time' at Railexpo and perhaps leave the running of the layout to those not of the diesel persuasion. Wink

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:21 pm

This afternoon I found this establishment not 20 miles from my house

http://www.petrolscooter.co.uk/spare-parts/go-kart-parts/petrolscooter-parts.html

A veritable treasure trove of scooter based parts with about 200 scooter electric motors in stock at about 19 upwards. I had to buy one , I think the same as the one you generously offered me Carl. Also lots of lovely little petrol engines and much more.

If there is anything you need let me know and I will bring to Pontoise.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:31 am

That's a great site similar to a place I obtained my motor from. I see they have all the belts and accessories too.

It will be interesting to see how you get on with this motor. I never went beyond turning over a 2 stroke and seeing what sort of voltage it produces.
But they have obvious advantages over a 12 volt motor.

I'm pretty sure Jerry Hyde uses a 24 volt motor as a generator in his rtr models and he also uses a 4 stroke engine.....


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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:07 am

Carl, would you guess it would be possible to get a belt drive to function without a sprung self tensioning device.

I cannot see any pics of scooters where there is such a mechanism however the "lip" height of the belt is pretty low pro.

I guess the way is start simple ie without tensioning and see if it works.


Last edited by David Grantham on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:33 pm

We have a cheap Chinese electric belt driven scooter here and there is no tensioning device at all. It has had pretty abusive treatment from my daughter and her friends over the last year and goes as new.
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midwalesstokie



Location : South Wales

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:45 am

Well, I've been lurking here for ages and have read and re-read all the live diesel articles so many times that I left myself with no option but to try and make one myself!

The bit I'm not sure about is the constant glow plug circuit to keep the plug lit constantly. I can get the engine to idle much slower with the plug lit so this is a must for me but I'm not sure what the circuit should look like. Is the plug clip just a simple + - connection? which part of the plug is which?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:31 pm

The engine idle speed can be lowered by making the mixture richer but at risk of losing the glow hence the need to keep it energised or only at low speeds.

Now someone had a gadget, or some information about that, Troy or David maybe?

I certainly have kept the glow plug energised on the old big green diesel but not on the 2 current ones. That was out of necessity because it ran too cold even at modest revs.
The circuit is very simple and yes, + is the pin on the glo plug and - is the frame.

You will need a high power battery though. I use a 5Ah 2v battery which lasts about an hour.
Despite various unfounded comment elsewhere I've never had a noticeable problem with keeping the plug alight.

Any pics of your progress so far?
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midwalesstokie



Location : South Wales

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:37 pm

Thanks Carl, that makes sense. The engine is barely run in which is probably why it doesn't idle too well so I expect this will improve as it runs more.

In terms of pictures I just have an engine in a vice at the moment but I'm going to start on building a frame to hold it all together so I'll post some photos then.

Incidentally, in response to another thread, I have scratchbuilt both the Ffestiniog and WHR funkeys on 45mm. They're both battery r/c at the moment.

Apologies for stealing the thread.

James
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:55 pm

Pictures of those would be nice James.

I thought about a live diesel version but that would be another project too far at the moment.

I presume you thinking of electric transmission? If so what are you going to use as a generator?
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midwalesstokie



Location : South Wales

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:59 pm

I'll put the photos of the Funkeys in another thread, this has been hijacked enough!

Yes, It'll be electric transmission. I have a motor that I want to use but I'm not sure what sort of voltage it will generate until I fasten it all up. If that isn't suitable then I'll go for one of the motors recommended on here. It's all very much trial and error at the moment as I have no knowledge of nitro engines so I'm very much out of my comfort zone. All good fun though!

James
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:33 pm

David, ive had a skim rad over this, and pease correct me if i am wrong, but what ive taken out of this is that you are coupling an os 4s to a dc motor (what size??) through the use of gears.

From what ive read, the word Misalignment crops up alot on this thread.From the experience of what ive tried, and from working my way through many direct couplings, there really wont be much misalignment as long as the holes are drilled correctly, and you then just build up a soft mouse matt (or more pro inequivalent) underneath the motor, until the motor is properly supported. So at first when you connect engine to motor, the motor should sit in the air, hanging from the coupling. This has worked for me on 2 different locomotives using this kind of set up.

I could have interpreted that all wrong though, so please let me know David, and i keen to see a video of this loco running and hear that 4stroke power Laughing
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:45 pm

Anton, I have built 3 prototype test beds each with a newish four stroke and all have failed due to either insufficient gearing or structural failure of the gearbox.

I could not start the 4 stroke without gearing using a 24v 11 pole (950?) motor so I would be most surprised if your 850 would work. The other big issue is the power surge once every 4 cycles causes massive stresses on the gears or gearbox.

Maybe a well worn 2nd hand 4s is better than a newish one ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dead or Alive diesel   Today at 6:05 am

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