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 The Mamod Minor adventure

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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: The Mamod Minor adventure   Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:02 pm

A few weeks ago I found a very nice Mamod Minor I on Ebay for a very reasonable price. With some great help from David as intermediar (many thanks!) the little engine arrived today:



As mentioned before, I would like to convert it to a steam locomotive (inspired by the ones discussed on the Live Steam Excellence topic.

Before I start converting / bashing it I want to try it out. But before running it I would like some advise to prevent me from ruining it...

First some more pictures;






Detail pictures show a white dusty layer. Could this be chalk?








Chimney



Pressure valve. There are some black stuff under the upper hat. Don't know if it is dust/dirt or that it is the remains of a rubber ring.



Questions:

- what is the best method to clean the enginge? Or what must I certainly not do...

- what oil is best to use for it? There are some special oils from Wilesco or Mamod. Are these simular to ones you can get in the DIY shop or not?

- If I remeber correctly it was better to fill it with rainwater (melted snow perhaps) instead of tap water?

- it's a 'meth burner'. What is 'meth' exactly? Is it methanol or not?
Can I use white spirit or lamp oil also?

All other advise welcome!




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Paul pirat
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:19 pm

Meths = Methylated spirits, denatured alcohol, alcohol ŕ brűler or I think it's called spiritus in Dutch.

Don't use anything else. White spirit will smoke terribly.

There's no lubricator so steam oil isn't necessary but you can use it to lubricate. If not then thick machine oil for lawnmowers or similar. Don't use penetrating oil like 3 in 1.

Use rainwater or water without mineral deposits in.

I believe there was a fibre washer under the safety valve but a thin rubber one will suffice. Tell me what diameter and I'll send you one. I think it's a 1/4 inch thread if I recall.

You can clean the boiler inside with vinegar to remove any scale like a kettle.

It won't be very powerful to drive a locomotive. A lightweight frame with a single driven axle and maybe belt driven as gears will put too much load.

But you can have some fun with this and there are lots of add ons and parts to upgrade later.

I did a project with an engine like this in physics for A level and set fire to the school carpet tiles..... silent
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:36 pm

If the safety valve doesn't work out, then let me know as i've got a spare one somewhere.
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:52 pm

"White dusty layer" could be mineral deposits (calcium) - probably from the use of tap water (or other non-demineralized water). Try using vinegar to remove it. I suspect methanol would work as well as a fuel, but it is somewhat toxic. In a pinch, Jenever would work, too. Razz



Cute little engine.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:43 pm

Thanks all you guys for the advise and kind offers!

I've collected some snow today for water. Can I clean the rain/snow water any further to clean it from miniral deposits? A coffee filter perhaps?

I hope to get some time to clean the engine this weekend (time is the fire in which we burn) and will post the results.

Spiritus is in stock (gourmet burners fuel) and in emergenyI can even get my hands on Jenever though I asume spiritus is cheaper :-)

When I get the little thing up and running I'll check the valve.

The little thingy in the chimney, is that some sort of valve also? Can't see clearly what it is but I asume some steam will come out? It is smaller than the safety valve.


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Paul pirat
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:54 pm

Quote :
It won't be very powerful to drive a locomotive. A lightweight frame with a single driven axle and maybe belt driven as gears will put too much load.

I don't think it will very powerfull indeed. But I have some solo running model like this in my mind with it



Simple aluminium frame and lightweight balsa for the coach. But I'll have a long way to go...

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Paul pirat
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:36 am

Paulus wrote:


The little thingy in the chimney, is that some sort of valve also? Can't see clearly what it is but I asume some steam will come out? It is smaller than the safety valve.


I think you'll find its just a rivet to hold the chimney on.

I really like the railcar, but its a big ask for a little engine. I'd suggest just seeing if you can get this engine to move itself before building any body work. It looks like you're thinking lightness already, so a light chassis and simple belt reduction - 5:1 sounds like a starting point, based on something similar I had years ago.
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:45 pm

Yep, you are right. It is only the chimney rivet.
It is indeed my intention to get it move by itself first (or actually, to get it work first) before I build any bodywork on it. But the railcar is a (vague) idea that I have for it.

I cleaned the whole engine up today.

Before:




After:




Cleaned with vinegar. There was much rubble comming out of the boiler after letting the vinegar soak in for an hour.

After putting the engine together again, oiling and filling it with water I fired it up. Unfortunatly without any sucses Sad
After more than half an hour there was still no steam or any movement.
It was getting hot but not as hot as a hot cup of tea.
It looks like the one pit burner does not heat the boiler enough to let the water boil. But isn't that strange since the burner comes with these kind of engines?



Also, I suspect the cylinder is stuck. I can't get any movement in it. I asume it must have some compression but it does not move at all.
I tried some drips of penatrating oil to get it loose but without any result...

And for last, I don't know if the safety valve is ok. I cleaned it with vinegar ( it layed in a cup of vinegar for 1 hour, than brushed clean).
I see there is a spring so I asume you can push it together or something? But it is not possible to push it or stretch it.

Again, all advise welcome!

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Paul pirat
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:47 am

Ok, where to begin...

Safety valve - you should be able to lift the domed brass bit at the top as the spring is designed to pull it down against the bit that threads into the boiler. It probably needs a good soak in vinegar. I'm afraid you must get this working somehow.

Burner - the non working safety valve probably didn't matter as the burner wasn't working properly either. As you say its a bit small ! The wick needs a slight haircut, and needs to be pulled out of the burner a little to make a longer flame. Play with the wick until you get a nice yellow-blue smoke free flame. Also, fill the boiler with the hottest water you can - no point wasting spirit on what a kettle can do in seconds.

Engine - this should turn freely. If you can't spin it easily by hand, then no amount of steam will make it go. First make sure you can pull the cylinder away from the port face (green bit). You may even be able to pull the piston off the flywheel, but if not, unscrew the bolt with the spring on at the back and remove the cylinder & piston. Make sure the piston moves easily in the cylinder- it should require no more than cleaning.

Finally, whilst the piston is off blow through the steam pipe linking the green bit to the boiler to ensure that it isn't blocked.

Best of lick.
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:12 pm

Thanks! That was very helpfull!

I've succeeded to remove the cylinder. It is indeed (severly) stuck.
I also was able to lift up the safety valve cap. It was stuck but came loose after a few very gently attempts to lift it up wit a fine screwdriver. I can feel a bit resistant inside when I lift it and some white calcium dust came out. I give it a vinegar treatment again to clean it much more.

So, the safety valve and cylinder are soaking in the vinegar now. I think I let them swim a few hours and see what happens.

Also cleaned out the steam pipe with a thin brass insulated wire. It's open and the water runs through it when I hold the engine upside down.

Good advise on filling the engine with hot water! Why did I not came up with that in the first place... I can see this will speed things up.
Just have to find a way to heat up the demineralized water without 'infecting' it with residu from non-demineralized water. If I buy a simple watercooker for it, only using it for demineralized water, would that work?

Another question:
How much water do you put in the boiler? I filled it up and let some water out so that I believe was about 4/5 th full. Is that OK or do I need more/less water?

Actually, this is very much fun somehow.

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Paul pirat
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:00 pm

I would use tap water straight out of the kettle to start with, and worry about another kettle later.
How much water is a bit of trial and error - 4/5ths or slightly less sounds like a good starting point.

The thing about steam engines is that as you solve each problem the engine rewards you by running better and then presents you with another problem. Once you get it running then it will be a very satisfying feeling.
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:57 pm

Thanks for the help: it has just run very succesfully!
It sure was satisfying to see that little engine spinning and snoring!

First some pictures:

The cylinder and piston loose after an afternoon in vinegar. Notice the drab dirt on the piston.



Than cutting the wick as you said and get a bigger flame.



Cooked some tapwater and filled it. Waited a few minutes and after some spitting and gurgling of the engine the magic started! I did not time it but I'm pretty sure it run for about 10 minutes.



I made a small video (with an almost battery flat camera) and try to post it on Youtube so you all can see it 'alive' later on tonight.

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Paul pirat
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:05 pm

Video. It sounds harder on the video than in real. I think it is the resonating metal ovenplate were the engine stands on...
Actually it runned very nice.

(Sorry for the blurry moments in the video. I first used windows movie maker and was able to edit it into a very nice video but than the program refused to save it afterwards. Finaly edited online on Youtube but could not cut the blurry parts out...)




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Paul pirat
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:13 pm

Excellent ! Great to see you got it going... cheers
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:36 am

That is brilliant Paul. You have just successfully restored a classic Mamod steam engine!
....And learnt a lot quickly. There'll be no stopping you now you've got the live steam bug.


What David said is very true and goes for live diesel too!
The thing about steam engines is that as you solve each problem the engine rewards you by running better and then presents you with another problem. Once you get it running then it will be a very satisfying feeling.


Just to add, that never assume because you sorted all the problems out, ran it perfectly and put it away its box that it will start and run (steam or diesel) the next time it comes out. Evil or Very Mad
I've become very superstitious and I set the tools out ready before I get the engine out!

Can't wait to see the next development Paul. How about adding a belt driven BLDC motor for a steam electric?
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:02 pm

That would be an idea for a next time. But it has crossed my mind to make some sort of Garrett type engine with electric bogies powered by the steam engine.

But for now I go for a simple belt driven axle. Have to find some materials for the chassis, gears etc.

Last night it ran for more than a full 20 minutes!!

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Paul pirat
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:55 pm

This is what I gleaned together this far:
- 3 belt wheels out of the scrapbox. I propably use the mid sized one.
- 4 galvanized corner thingies
- aluminum strip 1000x20x2 mm.



Still waiting for two steel gears I ordered at Conrad (module 1, 1x40 tooth, 1x 12 tooth) hopefully a good guess. Gears are a totally new thing for me.

Now diving back in the scrapboxes for some axles and wheels.

The plan is to make a simple chassis with aluminum sides and wood or aluminum front and back sides.
Inbetween the wheels and gears, with the belt wheel outside the frame.




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Paul pirat
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:38 am

Ok, the gears have arrived last saturday and I started experimenting with a chassis and simple gearbox. This is all new to me, so although I thought I thougt it over, it seems it is an adventure for me all the same.

The gears are placed on the axles. The small 12t on a 3 mm LGB axle, the 40t on a 6 mm Bachman/Lilliput axle.





It was actually my first idea to place the 40t gear on the axle with the wheels and 'power' it with the 12t gear, creating a reduced speed.
But the 40t gear is bigger than I aspected (my fault, because the measures were mentioned on the Conrad site...) and will stick out too much at the underside causing problems with turnouts etc. (what makes me wonder how those track geared mountain railways handle turnouts).

So, the 12t comes on the wheeled axle, using the metal Bachman/Lilliput wheels on it. I made spacers from the plastic tubes that are part of the plastic LGB wheels.


Made a chassis sides out of aluminum strip and put it all in place.


Looks nice but this setup will increase the speed and not reduce it...
So my next options are:
1) to create a third axle that powers the big 40t by a smaller gear (8t perhaps)
2) to create a third axle that powers the big 40t gear with the 12t gear and replace the 12t gear with a bigger gear (25t).
3) to create a whole new setup (advise and ideas welcome!)

Also I was wondering if belt drive will be strong enough to power it or could I better switch to chains. I see others that have build simular engines all using chains in the end so I guess that tells enough...
But first I want the chassis and gear setup right, than I can place the engine (belt or chain driven) on the chassis.

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Paul pirat
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:30 pm

Nice gears and that's looks very professional so far.
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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:31 pm

The steel Conrad gears are very nice indeed and not that expensive. They are from Modelcarft originally.

Here is the link to the French Conrad site with the metal gears: http://www.conrad.fr/ce/fr/Search.html?search=engrenages&filterBrand=MODELCRAFT&filterMatériau=Acier&filterMatériau=Acier


Strange thing, it looks like the French Conrad site offers more steel gears than the Dutch site (still all comes from the general warehouse in Germany...).
For instance the "Pignon-conique-acier-module-1-Modelcraft-31-1545-dents" or the 65t gear are not available here... Question

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Paul pirat
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:07 am

Why not a belt drive? It works for Harleys Very Happy

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:46 am

Paul, one option would be to use an HTD ribbed belt and pulleys. I would have thought that a 3mm pitch and 9mm wide belt would be more than adequate for the power and torque from your steam engine. I originally used these on the 4 stroke test bed but they were not strong enough, but maybe OK for a 2 stroke. I am now testing the 4 stroke with 5mm pitch and 15mm wide heavy duty HTD belts and pulleys.
Here is one supplier link but there are many others.

http://www.motionco.co.uk/timing-belts-timing-belts-c-25_38_39.html

Guess the advantages are mainly no meshing issues, silent operation and in higher power operations a fusible connection. It has occurred to me since Rail Expo that an observer crouched over a high speed uncaged gearbox on a live diesel is a bit of a risk from flying teeth and I guess a broken belt would fail less catstrophically but I am not certain. Hope this helps.
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tram47



Location : Aquitaine (France)

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:49 pm

another fun drive :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KEB44RMJub4

Embarassed
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:18 pm

Jetex models magic for those that are old enough to remember.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:33 pm

Must have an amazing low C of G to stay on the track curves at that speed!!

I made a balsa wood model of a DeHavilland Vampire in my teens! It was powered by two Jetex rocket packs and yes it "Crashed" and "Burned" on its maiden flight Sad

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Brian
Brian
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www.frenchgardenrailways.com
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PostSubject: Re: The Mamod Minor adventure   Today at 6:50 am

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