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 Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale

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Tacbob




PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:14 am

Thank you Dave. Never heard of break horse power before. Is this the force needed to stall the engine?
It's always good to know that one can run faster than his train, if nessassary Cool.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:47 am

I've been looking at the temperatures you quoted and 150°C with a leaned out carb is quite high and for a 4 stroke too. I don't think it is wrong at all but it worries me a little.

I presume your measurements were carried out with an open engine and no body.

So with a 2 stroke in an enclosed space we can easily add 10 degrees to that and maybe a bit more at the exhaust port.

In that case one would not recommend soft soldering exhaust boxes as I have done!
Soft solder melts at around 180°C Shocked

BTW I found this useful site:
Beginners guide to glow engines
Which I've added to the webpage:
http://www.cgtrains.com/h4-live-diesel

Also Lorenz, here on the continent it is rare to find motors rated in Brake Horse Power, they as you probably know are usually rated in kiloWatts.
1 BHP = 0,746 kW.

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Tacbob



Location : Harz, Germany

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:57 am

Thanks Carl Smile.

_________________
Lorenz
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:26 am

Carl Hibbs wrote:
I presume your measurements were carried out with an open engine and no body.

Yes, and with the loco trundling along the track. It took two laps of the circuit to heat-up.

Quote :
So with a 2 stroke in an enclosed space we can easily add 10 degrees to that and maybe a bit more at the exhaust port.

In that case one would not recommend soft soldering exhaust boxes as I have done!
Soft solder melts at around 180°C Shocked

Well, Dave Watkins' Detritus' exhaust box appears to be soft soldered. I checked my silencer temperature when running and got a low figure, I don't remember what it was, but the engine is running extremely rich.
Best wishes,
Dave.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:10 am

Carl Hibbs wrote:
In that case one would not recommend soft soldering exhaust boxes as I have done!
Soft solder melts at around 180°C Shocked

As noted on my live diesel thread, my homemade soft soldered exhaust fell apart on its' second run. - So not recommended Rolling Eyes

I can't remember which temp solder I used, but of course, they come in a range of temps

_________________
Brian
Brian
also blogging at
www.frenchgardenrailways.com
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:05 am

I have been working quietly behind the scenes for months.  We now have a primary gearbox fitted with a 4-stage spur gear reduction.  The gears are quite massive and the whole box weighs quite a bit.  Here's a short video of me powering-up the box using the lathe.

 

Best wishes,
Dave.


Last edited by dewintondave on Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:19 am

Yesterday we had a fine outdoor test of the new clutch and gearbox.







Best wishes,
Dave.
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Saint-Oblas



Location : Lyon, France

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:13 am

Congratulations Dave! I am always impressed by people able to build nice mechanics!

I looked having a mechanical transmission for a De Dion Bouton railcar; but as I am not a mechanic myself I prospected the use of commercial parts (clutch, gears for a 2 or three speeds gearbox); but it soon appeared to be unrealistic: it is very difficult to get dimensions of available parts, the price is nearly prohibitive when you add evrything. Furthermore, it is practically unachievable without a lathe.
The only viable solution would be a simplified one taking all pieces from a second hand RC buggy, without building a reverse system (what in fact in not that stupid for the De Dion, because it just went one way except for station moves). But cars engines are running at very high rpm with a terrible noise.
So even for the simple case of the De dion (just one active axle), I think that electrical transmission woul be the only solution I can potentiely achieve.
So congratulations once more!

Just one question: what model is your OS? They don't make model with pullstart anymore. It is probably a .30 or .26 model? The noise is fantastic: the only one approaching a real engine.
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:53 am

Saint-Oblas wrote:
Just one question: what model is your OS? They don't make model with pullstart anymore. It is probably a .30 or .26 model? The noise is fantastic: the only one approaching a real engine.

Thank you Saint-Oblas.  It is the FS-26S-CX car motor.  I bought it new on eBay for big bucks a few years ago.

Best wishes,
Dave.
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Saint-Oblas



Location : Lyon, France

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:52 am

It is what I thought. A FS-26 has been sold yesterday night at 144 euros. I have seen thaat somepeople have turned one into a pullstart, but I do not know if the necessary spares are still available.
Today for the same price you can get a FS-30, which has the same overall dimensions, so the only advantage would have been the possibility of putting a pullstart:as I was not sure, this is the reason why I did not bid.
Yours seem to be in very good conditions. Real nice. I just bought a FS-70 surpass, but I am afraid it is too big for a IIm model. It would better suit a II scale (or bigger as it is very powerfull). The noise is the same, may be even a little better as it is bigger, but not that different.

Update: I saw the same engine that the one you have yesterday in a shop in Lyon. Since it is not made anymore they ask for 279 euros. Quite a lot! I saw in an other shop an FS-40 with pullstart: but the guy says he does sell it; he keeps it for his collection.
It seems that nowdays the alternative is either a four strokes or a pullstart!


Last edited by Saint-Oblas on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tacbob



Location : Harz, Germany

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:26 pm

Hello Dave,
Congrats on your progress. Is the friction surface of your clutch plain metal or do you use some other stuff to increase the friction?
cheers Lorenz

_________________
Lorenz
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:36 am

Tacbob wrote:
Hello Dave,
Congrats on your progress. Is the friction surface of your clutch plain metal or do you use some other stuff to increase the friction?
cheers Lorenz

Hi Lorenz, Thank you.  It's plain metal.

Best wishes,
Dave.
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Tacbob



Location : Harz, Germany

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:17 am

Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your quick reply. Just 2 more questions. Is the surface of the clutch smooth or did you grind it or something else. It's amazing that it work this way.
I've seen that the spur gear of the gearbox and the clutch are running on the same shaft. Is there any advantage in this or was it just the easiest way?

_________________
Lorenz
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:34 am

Hi Lorenz, 
The mating surfaces of the clutch are quite smooth turned surfaces.  Just like loco wheels that bear against smooth rails.  I wanted the gearbox output to be on the same level as the input - clutch.  We'll have to see how it works out in the long term.  I'm just finishing up the final drive to the Jack shaft at the moment.  I've lowered the jack shaft to be on the same plane as the axles.

Best wishes,
Dave.

_________________
All my garden railway videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/dewintondave
I am now posting images on Instagram: #LiveDiesel
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Tacbob



Location : Harz, Germany

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:48 pm

Hi Dave,
thank you for your explaination. Is the clutch spring loaded or just held in position by the lever (some kind of notch)? When the clutch is moving is it sliding on the shaft? If yes how do you get the torque from the clutch to the shaft? Is there some kind of notch and feather or do you use a bolt and an elongated hole?
Do you have a sketch of your transmission box that you would like to share maybe?

_________________
Lorenz
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:22 am

Hi Lorenz,
The clutch isn't spring loaded.  At the moment I just pull the lever to and fro, I can't lock it in position yet - something to do.
Yes, the clutch slides on the shaft.  There is a pin through the clutch that engages in a slot in the driveshaft.
I don't have any sketches yet.  The gear box is a 4-stage spur gear reduction, with the first 3 stages covered to control oil spray.
 
Best wishes,
Dave.

_________________
All my garden railway videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/dewintondave
I am now posting images on Instagram: #LiveDiesel
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Tacbob



Location : Harz, Germany

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:13 pm

Hi Dave,
Many thanks.
The lubrication system of the gearbox is looking very interesting. Is the amount of oil enough or do you have to oil additionally? Is there a draincock in the bottom of the gearbox?

_________________
Lorenz
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:37 am

Hi Lorenz,
There is plenty of oil with my system.  The fuel is 18% castor oil.  There was lots of oil present in the gearbox after the first run.  There is no drain at present.  I want to catch as much of the oil in the exhaust that I can and reuse for all the gears before it drops down on to the track bed.  How's that for being green?  Using a vegetable oil and then reusing it.  Wink  

Best wishes,
Dave.

_________________
All my garden railway videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/dewintondave
I am now posting images on Instagram: #LiveDiesel
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Tacbob



Location : Harz, Germany

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:38 am

Hi Dave,

That's very green  Very Happy . Do you mix the fuel by your self? Maybe it's enough when you install an overflow instead of a drain  scratch .

_________________
Lorenz
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:25 pm

Hi Lorenz,

I buy the fuel pre-mixed.

Best wishes,
Dave.

_________________
All my garden railway videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/dewintondave
I am now posting images on Instagram: #LiveDiesel
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:02 am

After yet more months of behind the scenes work I can now reveal the final transmission set-up. 





The gears are in constant mesh and are connected to their shafts by sliding dog-clutches.  The gears on the jack shaft are Loctited to the shaft, the other gears rotate on their shaft unless engaged by a clutch.

I have built a three-speed gear box.



As with Dave Watkins' "Detritus", reversing is accomplished by the opposing bevel gears.  Unlike an automotive gearbox the three gears are available in forwards and reverse.  The bevel gears were bought on eBay, and are the only gears I didn't cut myself.

There are four gear levers, one for reverse, one for 2nd gear, one for 3rd & 1st gears, and one for forward gear.  I have to bring reverse fully out of gear before engaging forwards or else both gears will be engaged, and that would cause issues  Smile 

Best wishes,
Dave.

_________________
All my garden railway videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/dewintondave
I am now posting images on Instagram: #LiveDiesel
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:34 am

Very nice piece of work
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Saint-Oblas



Location : Lyon, France

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:03 am

I wish I were able to build such a nice piece of engineering! Congratulations. The only minor drawback I see is that it takes a lot of space. But it is nice.
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:25 pm

What an excellent piece of work. Driving it is going to be fun !
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Sekim



Location : York England

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:25 pm

Dave
 
Very impressive.  As you’ve gathered I’m still at the thinking stage and tending at present towards the mech/elec solution, but have considerable interest in how you are doing it mechanically.  Did you consider cone clutches where you have used dogs and have you any detail pics of the dog clutches you could share?  I have a chum with a working “Smiths of Rodley” model steam crane and this uses cone clutches for all the main actions/winches etc.  They engage, drive and disengage cleanly and with your gate gearbox should work a treat.  Perhaps a thought for your next engine!
 
Will watch your progress whilst thinking some more.
 
Regards
 

Mike
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dewintondave



Location : New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:40 am

Sekim wrote:
Did you consider cone clutches where you have used dogs and have you any detail pics of the dog clutches you could share?  I have a chum with a working “Smiths of Rodley” model steam crane and this uses cone clutches for all the main actions/winches etc.  They engage, drive and disengage cleanly and with your gate gearbox should work a treat.  Perhaps a thought for your next engine!
 
Hi Mike,
 
No I didn't consider cone clutches.  I'm using two-dog dog clutches.  These gears aren't for changing on the move.  The flywheel has a tapered clutch.


 
I'm looking forward to moving on from the gearing now, and getting onto the other things like the rods and the bodywork, and perhaps new frames.
 
Best wishes,
Dave.
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PostSubject: Re: Live Diesel-Mechanical 1/12th scale   Today at 12:12 am

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