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 Regner Mh6 & 399

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Paul Stainz Holt




PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:29 pm

It certainly looks the part Bruce. Very Happy
Sorry to hear it isn't spot on.

Good job I didn't order one.........more than half of my curves are R1 and I ain't about
to redo my whole layout for one loco.
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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:05 pm

Just opened the lid on my Mh6 ..... there are a LOT of parts. It's going to take me a while Shocked
I bought the 399 as well, but should have stuck with just the one really. Not over impressed with the "decals", I expected brass castings but the Mh6 ones are at least a metallic finish. The sound unit is going into the support vehicle instead of into the loco and lighting will be LED's and batteries. A Massoth pulse type smoke unit is standing by, I bought a few from GRS a few months ago, so hopefully they will fit okay. Neither of the models will run on my layout as it is almost all Radius 1, so they will mainly be standing around on shed. (note to self: need to build a shed area)
I should have gone O gauge ... Heljan do a nice RTR Class 37 for 425.

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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:58 pm

Do I guess you're as underwhelmed as I am? I'd certainly like to install lighting - all the relevant holes are pre-drilled to pop wires through on both tender and smokebox, just not sure how to do it.

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Paul Stainz Holt



Location : North Wales

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:03 pm

bruce wrote:
Do I guess you're as underwhelmed as I am? I'd certainly like to install lighting - all the relevant holes are pre-drilled to pop wires through on both tender and smokebox, just not sure how to do it.

Bruce
Perhaps if you can have a look at the circuit board, all will become clear ?
Is there a wiring diagram supplied ?

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:45 am

Bruce, from what I can see of the motor terminals there seems to be two spare terminals which I assume are for lighting or accessories. These are right up inside the boiler though and you will need to get the boiler off to access these. How you remove the boiler, I can't say as I haven't fitted mine yet. Hopefully it is the last part to be attached which will make any future problems easier. You may be able to get access from underneath but it will be fiddly. Personally I would wire lights up from the back of the pick-up brushes.
I think I'll be taking the cowards way out though .... LED's and battery pack.

confused
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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:03 am

Last night, I made a start building my Mh6. Some of the build is obvious, but some is trial and error (i.e: which length screws go where), some diagram's also are for assembling the steam version. I am also wondering whether to locktite everything but the screws and bolts are a pretty snug fit. One thing I have noticed is that most parts are interchangeable with the live steam version .... (e.g: the steam chests are just minus the pipes and pistons but the steam routes are all drilled out and the cylinders are bushed ...... there are also 8 brass axle boxes included for the loco, but only 6 are needed for the electric version). The wheels are secured by very small grub screws which locate on a smooth, round axle (no locating flats) and can't be tightened too hard for fear of rounding off the Allen key. The non-flanged wheel is the driven axle via a pre-built brass differential unit .... this axle has no suspension and is the datum pivot point for the other suspended axles. The chassis frames for both loco and tender have been pre-assembled by Regner, so no worries about getting the frames out of true. The motor drive has been cleverly arranged but the motor voltage spec does give me cause for a little concern .....
It is a Modelcraft IG32005-3AC21R can motor which I assume is a brushless unit (no provision for changing any). The motor has a pair of diodes soldered onto its circuit board which convert the AC motor to DC .... which I assume is why you can't run this loco on Digital layouts without a decoder
Operating Voltage = 12v
Rated Current = 550mA
Rated Speed = 995rpm
Rated Torque = 0.3kgf.cm
The 12 volt part of the spec caught my eye, so I wonder how it will run on 22 volts?

confused
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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:00 am

Update. Reading the instructions, there's a take off point on the electrics board for front and rear lighting. As Andy says, all you have to do is get to it, which may be possible through the smokebox door.

Regarding the binding, the problem appears to be that the connecting rods have been incorrectly assembled. The wrong bolt has been used on one side, resulting in too much movement and a bad scratch on the wheel in an arc to match the (overlength) bolt that has been used. Given that I paid quite a bit extra to have it assembled professionally I'm damned annoyed - it's blindingly obvious that it's the wrong bolt and a bodge job, not least because the correct one has been used on the other side. Here's a photo... you can see that it has too much "slop", and you can see the scratch on the wheel.
From H&DLR public album photos

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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:42 pm

That's a shame Bruce - it don't inspire confidence in the quality of the rest of the work. I wonder if the thread got stripped so they tried an oversize (unshouldered) bolt. You'll have to have a moan at them but can you trust em to get it right ?
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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:42 pm

pjti wrote:
That's a shame Bruce - it don't inspire confidence in the quality of the rest of the work. I wonder if the thread got stripped so they tried an oversize (unshouldered) bolt. You'll have to have a moan at them but can you trust em to get it right ?
Well, unfortunately there are one or two other issues. Assuming Martin's Models will supply the correct bolt, I should be able to replace it. The front plate under the smokebox wasn't well fitted, but is now. The imitation draincocks were loose but I have tightened them up at the risk of stripping the bolt threads. One boiler band is too loose but I cannot get to it to tighten it now. The cab side sheets aren't square to the footplate. These are all small things but shouldn't be wrong. I'm not quite certain whether the flangeless third axle, which on the model is actually the driven axle, is at the very top of the horn guides. This matters because only the other three axles are sprung - but this one is at the very end of the spring travel meaning that there's no slack in the springing. I noticed under test that it was "beaching" itself on this axle on a slightly uneven pair of points - and my track is pretty level. I'm know I'm nit picking now, it's got to me a bit, and it will be a superb loco when I get it sorted and detailed.

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:31 pm

There isn't really much you can do with the driven axle Bruce .... the gearbox fits in and is bolted directly to the main frames with pre-drilled holes. No adjustment at all. I'll probably find that mine has the same running problems ... have to see.
Regarding the squareness of the cab, some of the pre-drilled (jigged) holes do not line up very well .... the tender bodysides have been folded slightly too wide, so the when bolting together the rear is a good 2mm wider than the front with the resulting gaps being noticeable. Also, need to bolt the sides first with two small bolts and then make the rear "have it" which means those very thin bolts are in shear. If I take my time, I hopefully can overcome most of the little glitches as they arise, as I don't have any deadlines. A pity they are there though.
Having said that, the real loco never looked a good fit and they waddled like a drunken duck.

drunken
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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:51 pm

MzB wrote:
There isn't really much you can do with the driven axle Bruce .... the gearbox fits in and is bolted directly to the main frames with pre-drilled holes. No adjustment at all. I'll probably find that mine has the same running problems ... have to see.
Well, that, in a way, is good news... certainly I couldn't see much space there. At least it confirms correct construction.

MzB wrote:
Having said that, the real loco never looked a good fit and they waddled like a drunken duck.

drunken
True - in most photos they look well battered...

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:55 am

The kit comes with 8 floating / sliding axle boxes, so I assume that the live steam version is fully sprung, although only up and down for each axle. The electric version only uses 6 of these axle boxes with the motored axle being bolted solidly to the frames. As the loco was designed as live steam and Herr Regner was pressured (ha ha) into converting it to run electrically, there has been some compromise with the suspension.
I was told by the importer that there is a problem with the suspension whereby the suspension has to be "packed" using a couple of washers ..... not really sure what he meant but I suppose I will find out further into the build. I assume Bruce's loco has been so packed and maybe it shouldn't have .... I don't know. The sliding axle boxes are a very snug fit and so I will be relieving the paint thickness in this area to allow the guides to slide freely.

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:23 am

Most of the Mh6 kit is painted satin black whist some parts are chemically blackened. Whilst this may be okay for a live steamer, it does make the overall finish look a little patchy, so I may spray paint these parts to pristine it up a little. The real Mh6 has its cab interior painted cream .... not sure if this would make the model look a bit to gaudy though.
As Bruce says, the red on the 399 doesn't look quite right, with noticeably the firebox / cradle being red instead of black. Maybe some were outshopped like that, but I've never seen one myself, so that will be remedied before assembly. I also think that the shade of red used is a little too orange and I would prefer to repaint in a slightly darker shade (like DR frame red). I may also change the tender top extensions to resemble 399.01 (below) but I'll see when the time comes .... may change my mind by then. 399.01 in this pic also has its tender frames and bogie finished in red.

Wink

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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:42 pm

Spoke to Martin this morning. He is sending me a replacement bolt... he thinks he has some spares as Regner use a reasonably standard range of bolts. Martin has now sold all of the 5 Mh6/399s he received/ordered from Regner.

My loco will probably end up as 399.05, as seen here in Gmuend in 1981 with 399.06 and (hidden) 399.02. The wooden parts will need to be painted black - I've seen no evidence that they remained a wooden colour and can't imagine that they would (sic) for more than 5 minutes. The footplate all needs to be black not red. Ditto the firebox cradle and the plate below the smokebox door. However, searching the web, it's clear that the every loco has been changed around many times. One example - the combination of number plates, styles and positions has varied hugely on all locos over the years - painted white, cast brass, with OBB, without...
From H&DLR public album photos

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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:54 pm

With regard to the packing washers, on the assembly instructions there is reference to a mix of thick or thin washers being needed on each axle. I suspect this limits the play between the frames ever so slightly so that they do not bind against the firebox frames. At first I thought the binding problem on mine was related to excessive side play and/or an overlong bolt on the final axle/coupling rod. I've checked and the washers have been fitted. In fact, the binding arises because an incorrect bolt was fitted at the mid point of the coupling rod, so I can't really confirm much until the replacement bolt arrives. I'm really hoping that this solves the issues fully.

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:57 pm

Yes the wooden coal extensions need blackening on the 399 ... I'll be staining and varnishing the Mh6 ones though. This pic shows the cream cab interior of this loco as well ... a strange colour for a steam loco.

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:48 pm

Bruce, Andy.

Yes Regner like others use a fairly limited range and style of bolts, nuts etc.

I generally have a few spares if you ever get stuck.
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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Thanks, Carl. Hopefully I shouldn't need any, but...

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:33 pm

Quote :
Martin has now sold all of the 5 Mh6/399s he received/ordered from Regner.


Hmmm, I wonder who had the 5th one, and which way it tipped the balance ?

Question
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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:47 pm

I have now removed 35 thou from the top of each retaining bar that hold the axle bushes. This will allow the sprung axles to drop an extra 35 thou, thus giving a little extra allowance on undulating track. Diagram A / B / C shows characteristics (exaggerated) before modification, whilst D shows what I hope to have achieved. E shows the worst case scenario, but loco is heavy enough to overcome this (white spot denotes unsprung solid axle). If 35 thou proves not to be enough, there is no more meat left on the retaining bars, but it would be possible to shave the bottom of the sliding axle boxes another 25 to 35 thou, but the springs would then be too short. In any case, there was nothing to stop the springs from falling out and so I have added "pips" to the top of the slides to give them some location.
Bruce informed me, that due to the weight of the motor making the locomotive nose heavy, it had been necessary for the assembler to pack the front springs, effectively beefing up the front end. My solution though, will be to add some weight to the rear to balance the loco on its non sprung axle and keep the spring rates even.

Idea

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:33 pm

Go steady chaps. That's an expensive beast to be modifying. Good luck.

A point of intrigue. I presume there are number of common parts to both the live steam versions and electric. But how much I wonder?

What about the boiler for instance?

Just curious....... Cool
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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:30 am

The problems we are experiencing lie almost entirely with the fact that this was conceived as a live steam locomotive. The adaptation into an electric version, while clever, has IMHO been less than 100% successful.

Almost all the parts are the same. Although I can't be certain, I assume it is the same boiler with a slot milled out to accommodate a motor. This is reason that one boiler band was incorrectly fitted - it simply cannot be fitted correctly with the motor protruding through the boiler. For the 399 you get an Mh6 in some different colours and some extra parts, not a different kit, and I think the same principle holds good if you have electric rather than steam. Because it is essentially a live steam model, some of the detail parts that I'd expect to be there are not - cab glazing, for example, which won't melt on my loco... Although I'm instinctively very reluctant to start modifying such an expensive toy, I'm not sure these will have much resale value anyway. And it's no use at all if it doesn't work - there are no shelf queens here.

The springing issue, for example, arises because on the live steamer all eight axleboxes are independently sprung - and these problems do not occur. On the electric version, the gearbox needs to sit at the very top of the horn guides with the motor bracket bolted to the frames - none of this can move, or be moved, in any way. The motor/gearbox assembly is just ever so slightly too long, meaning that the flangeless driven axle (third from front) is fractionally too low. The limiters on the other axles will not allow the springs to push the axle boxes any lower, and so it beaches itself on the fixed axle. I too have filed a slice off the axle box limiters to allow the fourth axle to sit lower. At least all eight wheels sit on the rails on level track. There still isn't enough travel to compensate for rough (narrow gauge!) track. If I file any more off, the spring will drop out (don't ask...). The motor makes the loco front end heavy; Martin's builder dealt with this by compressing the front axle spring and severely limiting the travel. He also fitted the axles boxes with a short rod to hold the springs.

The locomotive now runs more or less as it should. The finescale flanges coupled (sic) with the wheelbase articulation means that it will not run backwards through R3 points in the curved direction. I have some track mods on order from Bertram Heyn to extend the R3 check rails, but if this doesn't work I may have to replace some LGB points with e.g. TrainLine45, which have a metal frog. I've glazed the cab, painted some red bits black (very badly - couldn't get the paint to take Sad ) and fitted a crew, number plates etc... photos will follow...

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:53 pm

The rear bogie ball pivot, once assembled is a little stiff and would be detrimental to running. I didn't want to leave the fixing bolts only half tight, so I have added some gasket paper which loosens things nicely once all nipped up tight. I have also left the wheels loose on the axles (instead of grub screwing to axles), and slipped a tube and nylon washers between to keep the gauge. Hopefully this will help with point negotiation.
The interior of Mh6 should be beige / cream, so I have gone down my favourite route of using automotive decal vinyl ... applied oversize then trimmed with a sharp knife before assembly. No worries about finish and easily removable if not happy with results. Pic below shows my vinyl applications to the cab.
Some parts not included in the kit which really ought to be, are front and rear buffers, coupling hooks, vacuum pipes, and chimney nostrils.
I'm also not too happy with a small grub screw on a smooth axle to locate the driving wheels. Nip up too tight and risk stripping the thread or rounding off the hex ... not tight enough and the quartering could slip. There should either be a flat or dimple in the axles which would not only help with the quartering but also give a more secure fixing.

pale

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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:04 pm

Spent all day trying to get 399.03 finished and operating correctly. Have tightened up various things that shouldn't have worked loose, moved boiler bands around so they do not interfere with the motor or the drive shaft and generally fettled stuff... Just need to sort out the pickups... not convinced they're all working but I can't see any way in if they're not Sad. The loco runs pretty well now but suddenly stops for no reason. I don't think anything's binding now, so I can only conclude there's some sort of electrical problem... somewhere... That aside, we now have glazed cab windows, a crew, numbers, black bits instead of red bits...
From H&DLR public album photos

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bruce



Location : Derbyshire, England

PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:08 pm

I guess pickups on the tender would be a good solution but it's a bit late for my loco now - MzB, I think tender pickups might be worth considering before you get it all wired up permanently?
From H&DLR public album photos

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PostSubject: Re: Regner Mh6 & 399   Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:21 pm

Yours looks a lot better now Bruce ... just need to put the dome on the right way round and it will be spot on Wink
I'm looking at the possibility of tender pick-ups but at present sorting out another electrical problem ..... the motor is 12 volt and my "5 volt" Massoth smoke unit does not switch on until 7.5 volts. I am going to build an 8 volt regulator for the smoke and wire 12x diodes in series with the motor to slow it down and enable it to run on 20 volts. Then I will have to alter the sound unit timings. All extra hassle. Will all need to be switched as well so that it can be isolated.

Quote :
I'm not sure these will have much resale value anyway

Aaarrrggghhh, don't say that Bruce ..... I'll be looking to sell my 399 later on .... I've decide one is enough ...

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