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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:44 pm

I am at the stage of laying my track.Most of my curves are what i would call 'extended R1' ie Radius1 curves with a 30cm straight in the middle to elongate the bend. can anybody tell me if this will be ok for 'live steam' (visitors in mind at the moment). Also if I should dip my toe into the waters of live steam can you make a loco go slow enough to be realistic? stupid questions perhaps but neccessary before I solder everything up.

mikey
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:05 pm

MIKEY - PLEASE DON'T DO IT

I've literally just been going through the same process myself and whether it's for Electric or Live steam I would honestly say minimum R3.

I have just tried the R1 with interspersed straights - it doesn't look right and the loco's behave like they are going round a threepenny bit!

Carl warned me, but I thought I'd attempt R1 anyway - it's fine in sidings but it looks and behaves badly on main track particularly outdoors.

I have decided to invest in Accucraft 6ft track lengths from Track Shack and a Massoth Rail Bender.

Given that we're not a million miles from each other you'd be welcome to borrow the track bender once I get one they are about 230 Euro's but I think an essential investment - again recommended by Carl.

Sorry to go off on one but wanted to save you some time and effort!

Cheers brian
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:13 pm

Not at all Brian, thats just the sort of advice I want. I laid my track out in the living room (12 metres long) and it looked ok with electric power at very slow speeds but I was not sure if live steam can be controlled in the same way.


Mikey
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clive_t



Location : Portsmouth, England

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:17 pm

Can't comment on R1s as I don't have any on my line - I I have found that although live steamers are OK with R2s, they don't like taking them at speed - I did a similar thing with a couple of my R2s - albeit with a 4-ft straight in between them. It looked OK at first, but when I tried videoing the traditional 'cab-view' round the track, even at modest speeds it looked like we were riding a roller-coaster - ie the curves were very 'sudden', and it seemed even more so when there was a bit of straight bit in between them. That said, I have only had one mishap with a live-steamer taking an R2 at speed - my fault: I left the MD in charge of the radio control Evil or Very Mad

You can make a live-steamer go slowly, but bear in mind that they are at the mercy of any gradient variations. Whereas a track-power loco will tend to apply more current to a motor going uphill to compensate for the additional loading, the amount of steam supplied to the pistons is solely down to the regulator - either manual or R/C. So you can easily find the loco starts off going nice and slow, then finds a minuscule upward gradient - and promptly stops - temporarily - whilst it builds up sufficient pressure to overcome the uphill resistance! If you try to compensate by opening the regulator somehow, that is fine until it reaches the top of the gradient (or even starts heading downhill) and it will take off! It's usually at this point where any sharpish curves are ignored and the loco carries on at a tangent all of its own! That is the joy(?) of driving a live steamer - you have to drive it!

I am sure Carl and others will have their own, more informed views on the matter, but I would suggest that if live-steam is anywhere on the horizon, then pay careful attention to your track levels! Oh, and don't expect the track to stay level for very long after you've painstakingly levelled it either! I know Carl will say it is not necessary for live steamers to have R/C, but it can become an issue if you have a need to regularly open and close regulators in order to negotiate a seriously undulating circuit.

Edited to endorse what Brian says about radii - the larger the better, if you can fit it in of course.

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the S&CGR

http://www.scampington-chipside.co.uk
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:25 pm

I guess that prompts another question then; If all my locos , coaches and wagons are 4-wheelers, will that make a difference?I've seen some of the bigger engines negotiating R1's and it doesnt look right, but my little tramway locos??

mikey
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clive_t



Location : Portsmouth, England

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:32 pm

Anything with a short wheelbase will be fine - with varying degrees of overhang, depending on the body length of course. A lot of the time it's the aesthetics of that which tends to put people off R1s unless it's for behind-the-scenes storage etc. LGB wagon and coach chasses are articulated, so will always negotiate R1s. I have heard of some people actually pinning/screwing the axle mounts on their LGB stock in place so they don't swivel, but how those items would take to an R1 curve, or more to the point ... err.. a point - is another matter.

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the S&CGR

http://www.scampington-chipside.co.uk
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:09 pm

LGB Certainly in the early days manufactured all their loco's to negotiate R!'s, indeed my Mallet will comfortably go round them with its two articulated six wheel drive bogies - but it doesn't look right!

It's just that you mentioned Live Steam and visiting loco's - 4 wheel stock and even my 8 wheel Newquida coaches will negotiate R1 happily. Clive is absolutely right about gradients too. I'm seriously re-thinking my entire layout because of the gradient factor!

Mikey - I'd love you to come over, I reckon a good head to head on track planning would benefit both of us.

Cheers Brian
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markbiff



Location : hinckley, uk

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:07 pm

mikey - use brians rail bender on the r1,s to make larger radius curves Very Happy may have to trim the rail ends a bit . i made straights out of boxes of r1.s

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:54 pm

Mark...That's a great tip that was published a while back on GSM.
I have tried it and would endorse it.

You can buy a shed load of R1s for vin de table money and with your magic railbender make what ever radius you like or need to fit your garden. You just have to have a few more joins but that's good in itself as you get a lot of nice prototypical clickety clack.

Most small basic live steam will go round R1's curves. I have them on my portable layout but which I am in the process of upgrading to R2 and 3 with this new Trainline 45 track.

At the end of day it's your railway and you do what you want within your budget etc.

R1's are fine if you are operating a tramway style line and you keep to that theme.
If you do use R1's try and blend it to a straight with an R2 and that will help avoid the 'DLR lurch'.

However R2 and 3 look so much better and are kinder to the locomotives, less friction, flange and bearing wear etc..

If you buy a railbender you can then just buy lengths of rail and make all your own track even points.

Some locos have difficulty negotiating R1 points and may try and jump over the frogs especially old ones.....A bit like me in the post office today. What a Face

All live steam locos can be made to run slowly even notorious demented demons like the Accucraft Ruby and fat ugly monsters like the LGB Frank S (gas valve full on or full off....Exclamation ).

OK pull up a chair while I put on an old record......
I can set my Accucraft Caradoc (manual control) with careful adjustment of regulator and gas and oil to run at a scale crawl non-stop around my layout with 1:35 ramps and 1.1 metre rad curves.
You can adjust the speed too with the load they are pulling.
It's an art that is easily learnt.

Yes R/C is a plus for driving and manouvering a locomotive but in my view not essential.
Sometimes it great to 'see my baby jive' on it's own.

I would quite happily lend you an Accucraft loco to practice with after April, and you could give back at Geoff's. Or go to Brian's if he'll let you play with his baby....?
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:09 pm

Can i bend them while they're still on the sleeper webbing or do they have to be taken apart)
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:24 pm

As I understand it - you bend them as a complete rail ...

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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:26 pm

markbiff wrote:
mikey - use brians rail bender on the r1,s to make larger radius curves Very Happy may have to trim the rail ends a bit . i made straights out of boxes of r1.s


That's great advice R1's are so cheap over here and on French and German Ebay!
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:32 pm

I know . I've bought loads of them on french ebay. Thats why i originally posted the question!

LOL

mikey
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:33 pm

Mikey, Carl is right!

if budget is the ultimate consideration R1 is fine.

It's your railway at the end of the day! - and now after two weeks even I can get my live steamer to crawl round them - but it's a fine art and the burner noise is intense - believe me.

Sorry for sounding off earlier - highly recommend a visit here and see for yourself!

Cheers B
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markbiff



Location : hinckley, uk

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:20 pm

GWhizz wrote:
As I understand it - you bend them as a complete rail ...


when enlarging the radius of r1,s you will need to cut the underside webs on the inside rail that connect the sleepers together
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markbiff



Location : hinckley, uk

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:25 pm

heres a video of my manual edrige - i have more than enough rc kit to fit it . but prefere not to as i like the interaction / challange of running the loco round r1,s / r2,s also inclines. most satisfying Very Happy

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markbiff



Location : hinckley, uk

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:28 pm

1 more

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fm12



Location : 87210 Haute Vienne, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:21 am

All good info,I`m in the early planning stages myself.Brian finds he can earn a living hiring out his rail bender and R1s start to fetch good money Laughing
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:43 pm

fm12 wrote:
All good info,I`m in the early planning stages myself.Brian finds he can earn a living hiring out his rail bender and R1s start to fetch good money Laughing

Haven't actually bought it yet! Was poised to get one from Modell Land in Germany when Jeremy said he would have stock by end of the week at Dragon

B
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fm12



Location : 87210 Haute Vienne, France

PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:14 pm

lol!

G WHIZZ RAIL BENDER HIRE

Plenty of customers there Brian and not all from the train fraternity
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PostSubject: Re: Track radii   Today at 2:18 pm

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