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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:17 am

I've started laying my track which is a combination of LGB different lengths,aluminium hand made and brass rail secured to wallclad tongue and groove (Lambris to us ex-pats).Question is; because of the 40 degree temperatures we sometimes get in summer,how much gap should i leave between sections to combat expansion. I have no idea of the rate of Exp. with brass. Anybody had experience of buckling rails?

Mikey
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clive_t



Location : Portsmouth, England

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:26 pm

No experience of buckling rails, but then my track is free-floating so it can (and frequently does!) move as it sees fit. I guess if you are rigidly fixing the sleeper to the substrate, whatever it is, then it might be a problem - however, the danger is if you set the gap to allow for what you think is enough, then sod's law will dictate that it won't be enough - or alternatively when the temperature dips to something a whole lot colder than when you laid the track, it will shrink to such an extent that the track sections actually part company!

I have seen a method of securing track whereby a loop of plastic goes loosely round the sleeper, then that loop of plastic is secured to the track bed somehow. This allows a modest lateral movement of the sleeper where necessary, and has been shown to be effective in dealing with expansion/shrinkage issues. I would suggest though that if you are intent on running track power, then some rail clamps might be a good investment - although these are not the cheapest, especially if you have a lot of rail joints to cover.

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the S&CGR

http://www.scampington-chipside.co.uk
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:32 pm

Hi Mikey

I have the same temperatures to contend with. When I posted a similar question on GMad, some of the US and Australian guys, even in Arizona reassured me it wouldn't be a problem.

I plan to solder up or buy max 1.8 lengths and then use Massoth joiners inbetween!

BTW have you got all the track you need - have a look at my track costs posting?

Cheers B
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:40 pm

I dont know about everything i need Brian! there doesnt seem to be an end to it. I'm laying track right now and everytime I come to a bend i stick a point in (just in case i want to extend it you know) My main prob is that i have this compulsive desire to make my own track (basically 'cos with a tramway you dont see the sleepers so I dont see the point of buying it then). I've got a reserve of lgb track but i am really keen on the LEBU track from IETB.

mikey
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:21 pm

Hi Mikey
We're both new to this game, but from the 8 months or so of my searching it seems that Garden Railways evolve rather than be planned. I think your idea of chucking in the odd turnout wherever you feel the railway might develop is a good but potentially expensive one, unless you're talking R1's

I've torn up about 3 sets of plans and a hundred more ideas, each time I go out, I change my mind, I'm moving towards ever increasing track radii, just bought two R5 turnouts. I have a sloping site and whereas initially I thought to follow ground level I'm now thinking raised track bed on supports.

The upshot of all this deliberation is that after 6 months I still haven't laid a single piece of permanent trackway, so all power to your elbow.

bon chance

Brian

BTW I do have a very nice pond that the railway is going to go round, and a pile of mud over a trench where a water main had to be laid
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:00 pm

GWhizz wrote:
Hi Mikey

I have the same temperatures to contend with. When I posted a similar question on GMad, some of the US and Australian guys, even in Arizona reassured me it wouldn't be a problem.

Cheers B

Sorry chaps to disappoint you but it can be a problem. I don't know who these well meaning peeps were but....

Metal expands in heat and has to have somewhere to go. The Coefficient of linear expansion for normal brass (63 cu 37) is 20x10-6
There are formulae for this which I can supply if you're are interested Sleep

The reality is that brass can expand around to 2mm for 1.5m length with a temperature change of around 20C

There are many other factors to consider as well as Clive has noted concerning the sub base and method of track laying. All these materials expand and contract too. Notably wooden bases. Plus too the position and exposure to direct sunlight.

As a rough guide I have allowed about a 2mm gap every 2 metres with my track layed during a warm 30 summer on a solid mostly concrete base and screwed and glued down.

But I use Nickel silver in the garden which expands less than brass.

If you are laying loose then maybe no expansion joints are required.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:14 pm

Now I'm really worried, my entire layout will be in direct South West France sunshine, like Mikey we regularly get 30 plus here, not that I'll be running trains, I'll be in the pool by then !

If you leave a 2mm gap in summer how big will it be when the temperature hits minus 8 we generally couple of weeks of this in the winter???

Big enough for my Mallet to disappear!

What's the answer - sliding connectors not railclamps? How about electric conductivity? I know that doesn't bother a dyed in the wool steamy like Carl !

B
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:38 pm

I don't think you should worry too much.

The reason I left about 2mm (which is a tiny gap - look at the gap on R1 point frogs Shocked ) is that we get temps of 40+ here mid summer sur le terrasse. In the winter the gaps can grow to around 3-3.5mm at worst. But after a while newly laid track will move anyway whether you like it or not and will then settle down after a couple of seasons.

I don't think your temperature extremes will be that much more than here. A tad warm in summer and in winter.

If you're worried then throw some test track down and monitor it for a while.

Tracks with gaps make a nice noise too.

For electrical connection don't rely on push on fishplates.
Aristo are bolt on...and have an expansion/adjustment slot.
You can add flexible jumper wires soldered across track joins or use the threaded hole in the rail for screwing the sleeper base.
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:56 pm

Well finally gave up the idea of making my own track today. Ordered a load of trainline 45 straights from IETB. I've been impressed with reports i've read about it and its readily available. Once I can straighten out (a bit) the R1's I will actually have a circuit!! Yes joined up at last.Cant wait!!

mikey
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Admin
Admin


Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:03 pm

Well done Mikey.

The gigs must be going well to able to afford that new track. Basketball

Trainline is very much like LGB more than Aristo.
I think you will be pleased.

If you are going to do track power I would consider the clamp type fishplates for outside use.

Look forward to seeing it down.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:17 am

mikeyh wrote:
Well finally gave up the idea of making my own track today. Ordered a load of trainline 45 straights from IETB. I've been impressed with reports i've read about it and its readily available. Once I can straighten out (a bit) the R1's I will actually have a circuit!! Yes joined up at last.Cant wait!!

mikey

Sorry Mikey, still no news on the bender from Dragon, but I am chasing!

And yes I do sleep, but I'm up early to hit Brico Depot in Angouleme before the Mama and Papa's arrive.

B
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:58 am

GWhizz wrote:
Sorry Mikey, still no news on the bender from Dragon, but I am chasing!

And yes I do sleep, but I'm up early to hit Brico Depot in Angouleme before the Mama and Papa's arrive.

B
You mean mamis and papis.
For those who don't know mami is grandmother and papi is grandfather but they have a special meaning here when viewed outside the family for example in the post office and shops.

They have a seemingly deliberate habit of doing their shopping at peak times when they have all day/week to do it.
They often claim priority in the queues which can be quite considerable here or just shuffle their way to the front and when they do get served just to buy one stamp they start gossipping with the assisant or assistants. They then take forever to pay turning out their purses looking for the last centime and then decide to pay by cheque. Then when they have finished they come back because they have forgotten something.

I hope I don't get like that. Shoot me first.
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:06 am

Just about summed us up!! I hate having a pocketful of small change, but what really annoys me is when i'm shopping with the missus and we get to the checkout and she goes through her purse counting out every last centime to pay the bill. the other day she counted out 7.5 euros in very small coins!! Hey i'm turning into a grumpy old man!

mikey
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:56 am

There really isn't a problem here ....... you don't lay track when it's the middle of Winter in drifting snow and you don't lay track when it's wet or raining. You tend to lay it on a hot Summer day.
Leave all your track outside for a couple of days to stabilise ... then lay it all butted up tight. All it can do then is contract.

Idea
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:46 pm

yes that makes sense Andy, cheers!!

mikey
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:49 pm

Admin wrote:


Trainline is very much like LGB more than Aristo.
I think you will be pleased.

If you are going to do track power I would consider the clamp type fishplates for outside use.


Hi Carl

Just bought a load of Aristo track, but apart from a subtle difference in sleeper moulding why do you reckon it's different to LGB quality???

Can you post a pic of the fishplates you have in mind - I've got a selection of Massoth Joiners / Standard LGB coming or should I change ???

Worried again in the "boonies"

Brian
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:14 pm

Oh don't worry Brian....
Aristo is still reasonable quality and fit for use but in my view not as good as LGB and Trainline.
Inferior Chinese brass and although the height is the same the rail profile is very slightly different. LGB is a bit 'meatier'.

The R1 points are not as well constructed as LGB. The plastic frog area on some are not a good fit to the surrounding brass rails.

Massoth joiners are great for all types of code 332 rail.
I use Aristo joiners because it is quite easy to drill and tap (M2) the side of the rail.
I will try and post a pic later after dinner.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:45 pm

carl hibbs wrote:
Oh don't worry Brian....
Aristo is still reasonable quality and fit for use but in my view not as good as LGB and Trainline.
Inferior Chinese brass and although the height is the same the rail profile is very slightly different. LGB is a bit 'meatier'.

The R1 points are not as well constructed as LGB. The plastic frog area on some are not a good fit to the surrounding brass rails.

Massoth joiners are great for all types of code 332 rail.
I use Aristo joiners because it is quite easy to drill and tap (M2) the side of the rail.
I will try and post a pic later after dinner.

Bon appetite

How does drilling and tapping fit with your earlier concerns on heat expansion ???

How are the Massoth joiners going to cope also? Given that they fix the track joint?

Even more confused!

B
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:49 pm

[quote="Admin"]

Trainline is very much like LGB more than Aristo.
I think you will be pleased.

[quote]

If there's a substantial quality difference it makes my track cost comparison "bunkum".

I would like to factor that in before anyone follows my advice!

cheers B
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:52 pm

carl hibbs wrote:
Oh don't worry Brian....
Aristo is still reasonable quality and fit for use but in my view not as good as LGB and Trainline.
Inferior Chinese brass and although the height is the same the rail profile is very slightly different. LGB is a bit 'meatier'.
.
affraid

I would have appreciated advice on that before my substantial purchase of Aristo Evil or Very Mad

I can't see the difference - but what do I know!

B
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:50 pm

No need to be worried.

Nothing wrong with Aristocraft track. It is fine but if you are comparing then are some differences.
These aren't substantial differences so it doesn't make your track costs 'bunkum'.

If you join Aristo with LGB you will find that looking closely the cross section rail profile is just very slightly different.

Trainline is closer to LGB because of the sleeper style and (brown) colour as well as the rail.
Aristo has black sleepering.
But these are small differences. On my portable layout I have 4 styles and makes of track.
Nobody really cares when they are watching the trains go round.

Your substantial purchase of Aristo track will serve you well.

As for the heat and expansion. I think you should try a piece or two of track first.
Andy said earlier to leave the track outside for a while to aclimatise is a good idea along with any timber track base.
I don't know how clamps and Aristo joiners perform in the heat outside as I don't use them.
But there are some on here who do.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:38 pm

Thanks for the advice Carl

So you're saying the drilled and tapped joiners don't actually clamp the track and allow expansion that sounds like a better system!
Would still really appreciate a pic as I'm not sure I'm familiar with them, and it may not be too late to change my order!

As for sleeper colour, I think my secondhand LGB track must be so old it's hard to see what colour it's supposed to be in any case!

I'm hoping that after a couple of seasons old and new track will all weather together!

That's probably being a bit hopeful!

Thanks again

Brian
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:29 pm

Here are some pics....

Top to bottom,
Trainline 900mm rad.,LGB R2, Aristo R1.

Ditto.


From left to right,
Aristo, LGB, Trainline, note screw fixing for fishplate underneath - see note below.


Details of Aristo screw and fishplate fixing, 2mm hex socket screw.







Aristo rail is also threaded underneath for attaching the sleeper base, 2mm x head screws.
Trainline is also threaded underneath for the attachment of fishplates but only at one end of each rail.
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:51 pm

Hi Guys

The penny's just dropped, Carl's talking Aristocraft, I'm talking Accucraft. I thought they were one and the same! Mon erreur Embarassed

Here's a shot of Accu vs LGB sleepers which are both brown ...



And the track profile -Accucraft if anything slightly chunkier but taller on the left!



For some reason Carl's fishplate pics aren't loading on my pc, I'll try again as I'm desperate to see what it's about.

TRACK BENDER UPDATE Jeremy is having to source one from Austria for me as Massoth have stopped production ??????

Cheers B
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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:56 pm

carl hibbs wrote:
Here are some pics....


That's fantastic Carl.

Hot Track - Hot Topic

I wonder where and how I can get Fishplate joiners onto my ACCUCRAFT track ?

B
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PostSubject: Re: Hot track   Today at 12:43 pm

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