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 Gas - not everything is what it seems.

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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Sat May 09, 2009 10:21 pm

In the not too distant past I started a thread on the other channel entitled "it's a gaz", sadly it disappeared into the ether. Gas is quite an emotive subject amongst live steamers, some people get so righteous about it all and say "if it says butane only then I only use butane". Ah but, just because it says Butane on the tin don't mean it is plain old Butane. So if you're thinking of using those 190g CampingGaz refills with one of Herr Regners adapters ........................


To be continued ...........................................
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Sat May 09, 2009 10:43 pm

Says Butane - clear as day, you can see it in the picture.

Check the website - it's a mixture..............................

Here we go again..................
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Sun May 10, 2009 9:03 pm

This is an old chestnut Patrick, you're right.

On the Campingaz C206 cartridge it says and is clearly marked in many languages 'Butane'.

There is no mention of any mixture.

I can't remember the outcome of the misleading debate elsewhere but if it says butane on the can then it must be butane inside not propane or a mixture thereof.

Other packs of Campingaz products are labled butane-propane mixture so I don't see why this would be labelled just butane but have a mixture inside.

I would say the website is incorrect.
The laws are pretty strict about product labelling....not so about website descriptions....

campingaz C206

Just to avoid too much diatribe on the subject I have e mailed 'Campingaz' and asked them why the web page describes it as such.

I await their reply.

Other companies by the way do clearly supply butane and butane propane mix in C206 190g cannisters.
I use gas marketed by a company called 'express', butane is blue, butane-propane mix is red.
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Quote :
Just to avoid too much diatribe on the subject I have e mailed 'Campingaz' and asked them why the web page describes it as such.

I await their reply

Any response Carl ?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:50 am

No Patrick, no reply after 3 e mails. Their customer service department obviously is very busy or ignorant.

I have consulted other people from outdoor suppliers to steamologists and everyone says that this is Butane.

For example I spoke to the customer service desk at Decathlon and they said if it is marked butane on the can then it 'should' be butane inside.

There are 'Campingaz' cannisters marked Butane/Propane mix and they are the same colour.

The problem with their website as that it shows a picture of one and a description of another.

If anyone is worried then don't use this Campingaz product. It is twice the price of other makes anyway. In cheap stores you can pick up C206 gas cans in butane or a mix for under 1 euro here.

BTW Regner has improved slightly the nipple on the end of the adaptors.
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:27 am

I checked on Campingaz website (switzerland in french) It look like that all their canisters are a mix of both gaz, here the link with all the canister and proportion of gaz.

http://www.campingaz.ch/index.php?id=50,0,0,1,0,0

Maybe you should ask the question at the switzerland website (CH), they said they are ready to answer and help any customer questions.


http://www.campingaz.ch/index.php?id=58,0,0,1,0,0

Contact
Camping Gaz (Suisse) SA
Route du Bleuet 7
1762 Givisiez
(Schweiz)

Tel: +41 26 460 40 40
Fax: +41 26 460 40 50
E-Mail: info@campingaz.ch


Laurent
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:15 am

Probably not recommended, but could a trained nose smell the difference?

Is the problem in steam locos down to calorific value (just noticed the pun) and one or other burning too hot or cold? If so, do they burn with a different coloured flame that might set them apart? Is the mixture really a lot worse than plain butane?

Maybe Camping Gaz are just covering their backs .... it probably is pure butane but a small percentage of atmospheric gases might be present .... a bit like food product labels saying "May Contain Nuts".

I recall in my camping days I would use Veritas gas in my stoves .... same teacake shaped canisters but were easier to buy in our local camping shop for some reason. Haven't seen their orange canisters for years.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:35 am

The chemistry and physics of Butane and Propane have long been debated elsewhere.

The main issue is that propane is stored at much higher pressures and the (earlier) gas tanks, valves and burner systems of certain model steam locomotives such as Roundhouse and especially Accucraft were not designed or constructed to use this even in a mixture with butane.

Accucraft tanks have been modified but still nobody from them will categorically state in writing that they are suitable for use with a butane/propane mix and in what proportions.

That is useful information about Campingaz.ch Laurent.
Maybe you could follow that one up and ask the question on their French speaking website and let us know the outcome please. I await with interest.
By the way did you have a good time at the weekend?

I have also asked in Leroy Merlin and Castoroma (French DIY stores) about these cannisters and they say it's just butane.

Again if it says butane on the can I would expect it to be butane inside. Just as I would expect it to be St Emilion if it said so and not Côtes du Rhône. A trained nose would surely know the difference. Wink

And really much of this is acedemic. Campingaz is twice the price of the other manufacturers so why bother using it anyway.
I have found other makes such as Rothenberger cheaper and clearly defined.
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:33 am

Could you send me the mail you sended already so i will know exactly what you wanted to asked. I will send them a mail tonight.


For the weekend, it was an excellent weekend i really enjoyed it, Pierre as well. It was very hard to wake him up monday morning dixit Miranda.

Ready for a new weekend like that whenever you want Very Happy
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:01 pm

The text of the emails read

'Dear sirs,
Please could you explain why on your website that the C206 gas cartridge is described in the text as containing a mixture of butane and propane gas when the cartridge iteslf is clearly marked as containing butane with no mention of a mixture of propane.

This information is very important and can have serious implications to the user.

As you are surely aware there maybe international laws and certainly strong recommendations as to the correct labelling of products and their contents.

Please could you advise me as a matter of urgency as to the correct contents of your branded C206 190g Campingaz cartridge.


Yours faithfully,'


Name and address supplied
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:19 pm

I continue to check on gaz, i found this.

For the commercial name of the two type of gaz the content have to be :

Butane (commercial) : It's butane and butène and less than 19% of propane and propène
NF M40-001

Propane (commercial) : It's propane and propène and less than 10% of éthane, ethylène, butane and butène.
NF M40-001 and NF M40-002

So it' appear that for about 20% of mix it's still consider as butane.

And that propane is for outside use and butane for inside use as it goes from liquid to gaz at 0° with consequence for the canister (same problem as water freezing)

So i think that the answer you needed.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:22 pm

Interesting find Laurent but it doesn't answer the question why Campingaz label some of their C206 cartridges as Butane and others as Butan/Propane or with reference to propane mixture.




There maybe complex labelling and conformity issues in diffrent countries that we may never fully understand and never be able to answer conclusively. You're quoting NF (Norme Francaise) that may not be the same as ISO international or the same as DIN (Germany) and BSI (British Standards).

And the end of the day we are not debating these issues but trying to make sure we use the recommended gas for a particular locomotive.

Until otherwise seen officially in writing Accucraft states 'Butane only'.

Roundhouse quote,

'Ordinary Butane or Iso-butane gas (as used in gas cigarette lighters) is the preferred fuel, though for economy, the larger canisters as used for blowlamps or camping stoves etc. are better. The larger canisters have an EN417 threaded self sealing valve on top and require a special adapter to couple up to the filler valve on the locomotive.
Mixed gasses, i.e. Butane with a proportion of Propane mixed in, are available, and may be used on current models (see details below) if straight Butane is unavailable. These come in a variety of mixes ranging from 90/10 to 60/40 with one of the most common being 70/30. The figures refer to the proportions of the mix i.e. 70/30 contains 70% butane and 30% propane. If using mixed gasses, always choose the one with the largest proportion of butane. The addition of propane slightly alters the gasses properties. This can make the burner a little more difficult to light when cold or after filling the gas tank. Always open the regulator very slowly when lighting, and only just sufficient for ignition to take place. Opening too much too soon may extinguish the flame until the burner reaches normal operating temperature.
Due to the higher storage tank pressure of mixed gasses, they should not be used in the following models.

(1) All Roundhouse Beck locomotives.
(2) Early 'Lady Anne', 'Dylan', 'Old Colonial' and 'Charles Pooter' models with external gas firing,
(3) Early 'Lady Anne' and 'Dylan' models with rectangular gas tank in the right hand side tank.
(4) Any models with 1" square, vertically mounted gas tank in the cab.
(5) Early 'S.R. & R.L #24' and 'Fowler' with one piece rectangular gas tank.
'

I'm not sure there is much point in continuing this subject unless Campingaz can categorically state that their Butane is butane and only butane.

If they can't do that or there is any doubt then don't use Campingaz. There are other easily available and cheaper makes that clearly state what the gas is inside.
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:35 pm

I think there is a point Carl, you see my "example" of Camping Gaz was just that . Here are a couple more.

I am also using their canisters for those portable cookers where the bottle lies on it's side. They all have Butane written on them, but again a check on the CZ website told me it was Isobutane, which is another form of butane but with a higher calorific value - it is not butane in the true sense of the word, you can tell it's different if you fire your engine with it, but it still says Butane on the tin.


Then there is Ronson lighter butane - the canister is long gone, but at the time I checked that out too.

Safety sheet says 56%butane - 24% isobutane - 22% propane - As far as I can remember the product was labelled as Universal Lighter Butane.

These are of course recognised Brand names and are at the more expensive end of the spectrum, I it could be that the cheaper brands that can be picked up would only contain butane, but I have had a no luck finding safety sheets for samples I have managed to obtain.

BUT on other forums there are folk who will not buy your cheap gas because it is alleged that the cheap gas has impurities and "bits" that clog the jets.

This is not a debate, just imformation sharing.
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:01 am

If you look at the link for the proportion in gaz some are 70/30 % and if you are over 19% it's not suppose to be called butane for the french legislation. I didn't see any euro rule about it yet. But there should be one for sure.

I found some with pure butane or propane, but it's for professional use and it's sale by "Air Liquid".
They don't show the price, but i think they are not selling it in small canister.
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Admin
Admin


Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:20 am

pjti wrote:
I think there is a point Carl.....
This is not a debate, just information sharing.

Share away and that's fine by me as long as we remember that this small forum is about trains and related subjects.
The aim of discussing the subject on this forum is to be sure that we are using the correct gas for our locomotives. If continued discussion helps achieve that then carry on. Smile
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:24 am

Ok, I was just trying to make the point that for those of us with "Butane only" stickers, what it (the gas) says on the tin could be misleading.
Thats it really.

Thread Closed.
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Admin
Admin


Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:23 am

No the thread doesn't need to be closed Patrick.

But like discussions before elsewhere we could get into the realms of unecessary scientific research.

If it says 'Butane only' in the instructions and you buy a can of gas in the shops which says 'butane' then there can't be a problem. You have bought and used what is seemingly correct.
Only Campingaz can tell us exactly what is chemically in their C206 cans.

What is transpiring from these useful findings are diffrent products marketed as 'butane'.
There appears to exist leisure products for camping stoves and alike where an undisclosed mixture of gasses is desirable for cold weather use and where vague labelling seems permitted in certain countries.
Contrary to this are welding/soldering type products where the exact contents are important and clearly labelled.

If you have the time it would be good to summarise these findings. We could even take the initiative and present this study to steam loco manufacturers and ask for their opinion or verification.

Following that we could produce a useful list of gas products that are available for use for live steam operation with a positive benefit for users new and old.
Smile

BTW, How is your Edrig running these days?
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PostSubject: Re: Gas - not everything is what it seems.   Today at 2:25 am

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