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 Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:16 am

Carl,

did you try a lot of silencer designs on your wonderful green monster or was there a less empirical approach. I was impressed and surprised how relatively quiet you had managed to make your live diesel.

I am assembling the relevant parts for a live diesel and this will be one of my main winter projects. If successful it will be called "Senor Carl Hibbs" though
I am unsure how to progress with refining the silencer.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:48 am

David...There was absolutely nothing empircal about the silencer.

It was crudely copied from something Bob Pope made in the USA and which mimics the function of an old style car exhaust.
This is just a soft soldered brass chamber/tube with a series of horizontal and verticle baffles in it. So the exhaust passes down one side of the chamber and up the other side dampening and cooling.
The bottom of the chamber acts as a sump and collects oil which is drained off by gravity through a connecting tube underneath.
This also helps limit the amount of 'clag' as Phil called it (the heavy exhaust smoke which seems to delight diesel trainspotters).

I am relishing a real FEVE diesel on a Locomotion chassis. That will be fantastic at next years open day. There's your target. And I've changed the title of this thread to reflect that.

Could you post or let me have some photos and details of a Locomotion chassis. How they are built, dimensions, material etc.

I keep thinking about rebuilding mine and/or building another and wondered about their suitability.


Last edited by Carl Hibbs on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:56 am

HeHe No pressure David!

mikey
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:16 pm

Carl, what are the benefits of including a speed controller in addition to a servo operated throttle on the diesel engine ?

Does it enhance or complicate the driving experience ?


David
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:54 pm

David Grantham wrote:
Carl, what are the benefits of including a speed controller in addition to a servo operated throttle on the diesel engine ?

Does it enhance or complicate the driving experience ?


David

It does both David. Rolling Eyes

It enhances by allowing the engine revs to built up providing more available volts and amps. If this was directly fed to the motor bogies it would be rough and crude although acceptable. I measured the output with an ammeter and volt meter and the DC generation is not particularly smooth - with motor I used as a generator. A higher quality multi-pole or brushles motor would be better.

The speed controller allows this raw power to be smoothly controlled with fine precision with reverse and neutral included but it is not essential and yes there two controls to juggle with.

Without the speed controller you will need a dpdt centre off switch on the direct generator output. I did use this system on trial originally and it was ok.


What I often do is notch up the revs to about 5000 rpm (quarter throttle) as the glow engines don't like idling for too long at low revs. They get too cold!
This speed gives me about 8-10volts at about 2-3 amps to play with.

The electronic speed controllers often have an input threshold voltage of about 5 volts which is just about what I get out from the generator on idle.

By you asking me this question it sound temptingly like you are building something......I'm getting interested here. Laughing
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:44 pm

Carl, many thanks for your reply.

Only progress to date is bidding for a cheap motor on Ebay and buying a multimeter. Unfortunately my electrical knowledge is limited to A level physics but I will get there eventually, afterall it is the learning adventure I enjoy most.

Hope to have an engine and generator/starter bolted to the workbench soon.

Hope your move is still progressing well.

David
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:08 pm

The prospect of another G scale live diesel is very exciting (okay...whatever turns one on...).

But it's the creation of an autonomous machine that has life that is so important (for some of us).

It's a bit like Frankenstein I suppose.

There will definitely have to be a joint meet somewhere next year.

If you need a wiring diagram/schematic of what I did I will be happy publish/send it.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:54 pm

A wiring diagram would be immensely useful Carl.

Thanks for the offer.
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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:10 pm

Carl..have you given thought to sticking an engine into the Renault railcar.It's plenty big enough.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:17 pm

It could be a good idea actually Troy.

I would have to do some tests with the wood to see if it will stand the temparature.

Plywood is ok though with heat proof paint. The green 'caravan' body was made out of it and has suffred no reaction.

A brass chassis would be easy to make and I have the bogies ready.

That would be brilliant though a real diesel ABH with lots of 'clag'.
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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:24 pm

I was thinking that you could build a brass 'inner' to give it weight and provide protection for the wood.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:43 am

Do you think that a typical etch brass diesel kit would need lining with wood on the inside for sound and heat insulation or do you think it would be OK au natural.
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:23 am

Carl it will be interesting to have a schematic for the principle of the machine, not a detail one, more what element are needed. I have something in mind, just don't know all the element I will need.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:42 pm

I have/had a schematic plan (and a wiring diag.) somewhere in my filing system. Bare with me while I try and locate it. If not I will draw-up another.

I think a simple cage around the engine motor would be enough to protect the bodywork during frequent removal.

An etched brass kit soft soldered would be fine David. I even discussed this project with Alan Doherty at Worsley Loco Works

The temperature of the engine is cooler than soldering temperture.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:45 am

I couldn't find the original plan(s) as I think they're boxed up and packed with the engine.

So here is a redrawn one.

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:52 am

Thanks Carl,

your efforts in redrawing this diagram are much appreciated.


David
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:17 pm

Of course if you need any further explanation then let me know.

I did try the relay in place of the DPDT switch.

I used a 6 volt relay that held open with just 5 volts supply (taken from the generator). This routes the generator output through the switched relay contacts into the speed controller (made by Electronize). 5 volts was about the minimum reliable threshold for the speed controller to function.

So when the output of the generator went below 5 volts or more importantly when the gloplug engine stalled, the relay closed and the 12 volt battery was switched to the input of the speed controller. This meant that the locomotive continued running automatically under battery power.

I took it off before Geoff's do in the summer but it is an easy add-on and you can leave the DPDT switch in situ and wire the relay around it.

For the receiver operation I tried using the BEC (Battery Eliminator Circuit) from the speed controller to power the receiver but again as the input voltage was not always stable this caused glitching.
So I reverted back to separate batteries.

The 2v gloplug battery can be eliminated too by making or buying (from any good model RC suppliers) a small circuit to step down 12v to a high current (5Ah) 2v supply.

This of course puts more load on the main battery for starting, gloplug and starter which means a bigger main battery supply is needed.

I did try (and still use) a bank of 5Ah sub C cells in the chassis well. This was ok for hot starting with no gloplug but for raw cold starting after weeks of inactivity , even just cranking the engine needs 8Ah.
So the present set up is an external, removalable 8Ah lead acid battery for initial starting then I switch to the C cells for subsequent warm engine restarts and I use a separate 2v 10ah battery for the gloplug which lasts for a good few hours even with the gloplug permanently on which can be necessary if the engine is running at idle and cold.


If you want a schematic plan/wiring diagram without using speed controller and just the generator ouput feed direct (via a switch) to the motor bogies, I can do that.

Just a real word of caution and disclaimer if you follow my plans/advice. I don't have the money for compensation for damage or injury (especially thumbs).

I have used 5 fuses in the circuit.

The battery one is 8 amps slow blow. The speed controller output is 3 amps and the input is 5 amps and there is a diode too which is important to stop reverse polarity which sometimes occurs when motors are switched off suddenly. The RX battery is .5 amp. The goplug battery is 3 amps.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:39 pm

Carl, do you think either of these would be suitable generators for a nitro engine capable of about 17k rpm

Graupner Speed 600BB Turbo 12V (3302)
Ballbearing-supported performance motor with 5-piece armature.
Nominal voltage 12 V
Operating voltage range 4,8-14,4 V
No-load rpm 17200
No-load current drain 1 A
Current drain at max. efficiency 7 A
Current drain when stalled 40 A


Graupner Inline 560 11.1V
Brushless
Nominal voltage: 11.1 V
Operating voltage range: 7.4 ... 14.8V
No-load speed: 19,980
Revs. / Volt (kV): 1800
Permissible motor direction: R and L



David
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:47 pm

Both would be suitable as generators in my opinion David but the first one 3302 I think would be better from the data shown.
The operating voltage range is wider.

However neither of these will be man enough to turn over a gloplug engine as a starter.
The turbo 700 series from Graupner might turn over a small engine.

The motor I used on mine was a fairly crude 12volt RE 850 type which has a 10amp rating!

My gloplug engine is 4cc (.25 cu in) What size is yours?

If you can get hold of a small 24 volt motor it will give out about 10-12 volts just on tickover.
(Which is what I plan to do (one day) using an electric scooter motor.)
You can then regulate that better with the speed controller without worrying about low threshold voltages.



There's one on e bay at the moment with a BIN
E bay scooter motor
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:00 pm

Good point. I see Mac Five and Electronise speed controllers have the ability to receive up to 24v. My traction motors are limited to 15 volts. What does one use to stop them frying.
Is it a fuse or a resistor or a diode ?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:45 pm

Certainly a fuse and a meaty reverse protection diode for the input to the speed controller.

For the output one could devise several circuits.

The simplest IMO would be a relay cut out device.

If you can get a 15 volt relay that would be ideal, with the relay coil strung across the speed controller output and then pass the feed to the traction motors through the normally closed contacts.
When the output voltage is sufficient to operate the relay coil it cuts the feed to the motors and when the voltage is reduced the contacts close and the feed is restored.

15 volt relays can be difficult to find but you can use a 12 volt one with some added components to make 15 volts.

I would definitely add an ouput fuse as well.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:07 pm

Carl, your RE 850 is rated at 8800rpm.

What happens if you throttle it faster than that and what protection do you have on the directly coupled 850.

I guess one could program a Spektrum Tx to limit the servo throw or fit a mechanical stop ??


David.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:38 pm

Yep...The RE-580 is rated at 8311 on my spec. sheet (I don't know how they manage to work out that so precisely...!).

People said it would sheer off it's mountings and take off like a mortar rocket when coupled to the gloplug engine....Bah non!

It's still connected.

The speed rating actually is for the supplied voltage and current drawn.

In practice they will allow themselves to be turned much faster, well mine has anyway.
Once I lost the throttle control and the engine revved away at maximum throttle with the motor connected with no damage.
Mine has run at regularly 10,000+rpm
I can't see what real damage can occur by running at more that the quoted speed.
The bearings may heat up, smoke a bit and at worst it catches fire. cheers

My electric motor is rigidly coupled to gloplug engine with a 12mm dia brass sleeve.
I tried a number of different expensive couplings but none have worked succesfully for me.



One I didn't try was an Oldham coupling which I notice that Jerry Barnes in the U.S. used but it was huge, nearly the same dia as the motor.

Forget the universal couplings that are sold in the model shops. They last less that 5 seconds.

Because mine is rigidly connected I allow the motor to float a little i.e. that the mounting is on a rubber pad and loosely bolted down with locknuts etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about the output voltage either to be honest. Certainly not to start with. You can always add something simple later to avoid overloading.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:12 pm

Max glow motor speed is about 18k. My guess at idling speed would be about 3-4k. If that is correct I guess I could get about 10 volts at idling speed. which would just about be right.

Mabuchi RS-755SH-3570

Operating Voltage Range 12 to 30Volts... DC Nominal 24V Constant
For Drills / Screwdrivers / Robotics / Models / Small Carts / Saws / Hedge trimmers and The Wind Generators. Data Sheet Supplied

No-load conditions takes 0.32A at 9200 r/min..
@ max efficiency current 1.96Amp at 7900r/min ..
Torque 420g-cm / 41.2mN-m
@ Stall 12Amp .. Torque 3000g-cm / 294mN-m
Body Dimensions...Length 60mm.. Dia 43mm.. Weight 272grams
Spindle 5mm dia x 15mm long


What say you Carl.
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:12 pm

The mabuchi link (useful search engine) :


http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/index.html



Here some specification :

http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/cat_files/rs_755vcwc.pdf

http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/cat_files/rs_775vcwc.pdf

http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/cat_files/rt_8b7wa.pdf

.
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PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Today at 4:34 am

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