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 Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE

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David Grantham




PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:43 pm

Brief progress report on the big ugly FEVE loco is :-

1. All relays, fuses and electronics installed in chassis
2. Two Essel motor bogies installed in chassis
3. 2.4gb Receiver and Electronize ESC installled in chassis
4. Chassis tested under battery power only and signed off as fully functional.

Main oustanding tasks are

1. Try to get the Oldham coupling.
2. Install ic power generator unit into chassis.
3. Test run under ic power.
4. Build and fit body.

Main issues outstanding are

1. Designing the loco body to fit within my railway's loading gauge.
2. Shaft alignment and a successful coupling.
3. Body made of wood, brass or plastikard. Brass is too heavy and would take too long. Plastikard is the easiest to work but goes brittle and could melt. Looks like ply again.
4. Summer has started and outdoor tracklaying is a big distraction from being driven insane with a live diesel.


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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:21 am

You have a functioning locomotive which is good progress. More than me at the moment.

An alternative to brass and cheaper is zinc. It can be bought from roofing suppliers and can be soldered quite easily. I've been experimenting.

Also aluminium is cheaper but difficult to solder although not impossible as I have found.

Have you tried gearing the two together shafts motor and engine yet as this was something that you were thinking about?
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:32 pm

Well now the weather is getting much nicer, I cant wait to see everyones little winter projects start coming out the sheds Very Happy

Would love some photos of progress so far David

Im having great difficulty with both of my locos at the moment. Shunt has that motor you sent me and its producing way to much voltage at the moment. I had it going this morning and I possibly had the volt metre set up incorrectly but it said at one pint it was producing 47 volts which will fry the speed controllers i have lined up. I will be using some kind of diodes as Carl suggested but haven't got round to it yet as exams are very close and ive got to knuckle down.

I have ordered a Pair of Pline bobo diesel bogies from India and have been in close contact with Paul about a live diesel business. He is in the process of sending me a pair of these bogies which i will use on my Hymek diesel.

I am still going to incorporate the Essel bogies you sent me with another of it kind but un-powered as you said. I havnt got the means to build an unpowered bogie at the moment but if anyone on this forum is up for it, let me know Very Happy

Would be fascinating to have a meet with all the diesel locos at some point or another.

Ive suddenly had the urge to build a much larger diesel to run on 5gauge track? if thats correct. as there is a track/club in my local woods (Chipperfield) where i could use it. The first step is to get the frame/base and the wheels i think and ive seen a few go on ebay for around £50 Very Happy

Im sure i speak for everyone as to say we are all excited to see your project Smile
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:33 pm

Anton, I admire your faith regarding the bogies. I saw the Pline bogie diesel at the 16mm AGM at Stoneleigh the other week and IMHO it was not up to UK standards, but I have mentioned this previously. Essel are to a very high engineering standard for a similar price.

Carl, I have achieved nothing regarding gearing the two shafts but I have obtained an oldham coupling which I will test next week. I have no idea if it will work. I tried to get a large diameter one but the largest stock item was 19mm. I guess it will work fine if I can align the shafts within specified tolerances, but no idea how to do this apart from using a solid coupling to do the alignment and then replace with the oldham.

l
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:04 am

Now mobile I have started to assemble my "kit" of parts. I just hope that the coupling, ie 2x19 teeth hardened steel, function OK as I have aligned them by hand using the paper imprint method.

Before I light up the motor could Carl, Anton or someone tell me if it is likely to run more smoothly at lower revs if the glow plug is permanently powered. My local model shop insists that it will burn out the plug but since some R/C aircraft suppliers provide on board power systems, I wonder if this is true.

At present I have "on board" a 12volt lead acid battery with a 4.5 volt take off and a 2volt lead acid battery. Could someone advise on the best voltage to apply to the permanently powered plug and how best to provide that voltage, with the capacity requirements in mind. Thanks.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:46 am

Hi David, i havnt been hearing from you in posts for a while.

Im afriad i do not know if it will make the engine run smoother scratch but i dont think it will burn the glo plug out by having it constantly lit, as i know various models such as boats do have permanently lit plugs.

Correct me if i am wrong, but the way the nitro engine works, is the minute it starts running, it constantly keeps the glowplug lit anyway? like a diesel?? i may be wrong there but that how i think they work, and if so, then there should be no problem keeping it lit with power as well.

I cant advise you as to what voltage to put through to the plug, but take a look at your glow plug ingniter, and it should have a very low voltage (mine is about 1.7v but relatively high mAh, mine is 2200), so it can provide the 1.7 volts for a long time.

I dont know whether its any help but thats about all i know David.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:34 pm

David Grantham wrote:
My local model shop insists that it will burn out the plug but since some R/C aircraft suppliers provide on board power systems, I wonder if this is true.

Nope, it's complete blx. Where do these people (model shop owners) get their ideas from. I was told that once too. Sounds like some of the armchair comments on you tube that I get periodically.

antonr91 wrote:


Correct me if i am wrong, but the way the nitro engine works, is the minute it starts running, it constantly keeps the glowplug lit anyway? like a diesel?? i may be wrong there but that how i think they work, and if so, then there should be no problem keeping it lit with power as well.


No correction required Anton That's exactly right. It's just a heating element after all. The battery will run out before the element burns out. I've tried it. Glow plugs do burn out or fail but not immediately for that reason.

David, on the green monster I have to keep the glow plug electrically energised otherwise the engine will stall because it runs too cold. I did write the optimum tempratures on a post somewhere.
It will last at least an hour with a 2volt 5ah lead acid battery. I have got an on board circuit for supplying this from 12volts but this circuitry takes up almost as much space as the 2volt battery and the battery is easier to wire up!.
As far as I can see the glow plug draws a fair bit less than 2 amps at 2 volts (or correctly 1.7volts). I have a portable igniter of only 1800ma.

There are moves with other users like aircraft to energise the glow plug under certain conditions using electronic devices to optimise performance.

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:12 pm

Tx Anton and Carl.

Carl are you saying that using my onboard 2v supply will be OK and NOT damage the plug and that I need not step this down say to 1.7 or use an additional 1.5 volt battery.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:16 pm

This is the aforesaid battery that I have been using for the past 4 years.



In that time I have had 3 failed glo plugs but I can't say they were burnt out or otherwise. As you can see it is clearly marked 2 volts @ 5000mAh.

I can't guarantee that your '2v supply' will NOT damage the plug. I think it unlikely.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:00 pm

Thx Carl.

Does anyone know if the drive hub on an OS30 engine is required to help seal the front crankshaft ball bearing and avoid oil/fuel leakage.

I found it hard to believe at the time but my local model shop said the drive hub was unnecessary and could be discarded but when I tried to prime the engine I got a massive fuel/oil leak out of the front crankcase ball bearing. I dont need the drive hub for power transmission because I have a pinion gear and grubscrew on the end of the crankshaft.

Logically I should chop the blades off a prop to use as a spacer and tighten the whole front crankcase assembly, as if it was an aircraft, so there is pressure on the drive hub and crankshaft ball bearing.

Nevertheless as I am a total novice with these nitro engines I thought best to ask before I do any damage.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:49 pm

I would say you do need that boss tightened on to the crankshaft. It's usually a thick piece of turned ally and the prop fits on after and is clamped with a plate and nut.

I have always retained that minus propeller of course and even on car type engines.

I can't recall ever having run one without to be honest.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:29 pm

What a great challenge and absolute frustration this live diesel project has become.
I tried to light up the 4 stroke engine for the first time today and

1 It would not start, I think my ignitor is up the spout.
2 It pumped masses of fuel out of the front bearing, despite having an abbreviated propellor attached, and messed up all the paintwork.
3 The gear wheel on the DC motor kept shearing out of mesh, presumably due to torque, even though it was fastened with 4 bolts.
4 One of the bogies dropped off the chassis on to the floor and got damaged.

I am seriously thinking of cancelling my October trip to Brittany to try to meet the Villebon deadline. I just need to see a bit of progress and get the chassis running on nitro before I start the body. The next live diesel will be a very different design and the most important feature will be a self contained power module that can be dropped into more than one model. That was the intent on this first attempt but the use of an old existing chassis precluded that. In hindsight it would have been easier to build a custom chassis.

Next progress report will be when I get back from the Welsh Highland in a weeks time.

See Anton, those grumpy old toads at the Model Engineering Group are probably jealous of what you have achieved and I can see why after my disasters.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm

Keep at it David...I've been there too. It'll get right eventually.

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:39 pm

Today I got the power generation unit to work. I probably should nt admit to this but the reason I was flooding the front bearing of the FS 30 is that I had connected the fuel pipe onto the breather nipple. Aaaaagh. Yes it pays to read the manual particularly if you know nothing about engines and your only other previous one did not have a breather nipple. Mesh seems ok but a little disturbed by the abbreviated propellor hitting the baseplate about 3000 times per minute. Yes I lowered the engine baseplate without shortening the prop. The prop seems a good idea as it will shift some air (but probaly not much), provides the required spacing for the gear set, can be used to prime the engine and assists with the removal of the screws on the crankshaft.

Does anyone know whether feeding fuel thru the breather nipple could effect the lubrication of the connecting rods on the crankshaft and how are these lubricated on a 4 stroke.

Anyway off to Pas de Calais tomorrow for a few days holiday and possibly a trip on the Baie de Somme railway

PS Local model shop has brand new 2 stroke size 30 and 40 engines at £20 each. If anyone wants more details please advise as I could bring to Villebon.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:16 am

A 4 stroke nitro engine is (usually) lubricated the same way as a 2 stroke by the fuel.
I haven't yet seen a 4 stroke model engine with a separate oil system.

I wouldn't have thought that fuel running into the exhaust via the 'breather nipple' would cause damage except for maybe drowning the engine, then it won't work!

By 'breather nipple' I presume you mean the outlet on the exhaust for pressurising the tank.

You can get simple one-way in-line valves that fit the fuel hose diameter. I found one for use with aquariums for a couple of euros. That would stop the fuel flowing back and may help keep the pressure in the tank. I haven't tried it yet though.

The fan/propellor on the crankshaft sounds a very good idea for ventilation if it could be shrouded. I still wince at having my thumb rebuilt.... pale

A new 2 stroke for £20 is very attractive David. A size .30 would be more than enough for me. At that price a twin engine model could be an interesting project.
I presume these are aero type engines without pull starts.



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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:31 pm

Carl, I will find out some details about the engines in the next couple of days.

I am tantalisingly close to getting the FEVE diesel chassis running, though I can now see why you moved from the Mark 1 to Mark 2 live diesel concept. Pull starter and brushless seem a definite improvement on a big battery, big can motor, dodgy coupling and a very stiff 4 stroke.

Any way I am committed to the Mark 1 design until I start my second Mark 2 live diesel and in future I will refer to the Mark 1 as a heritage diesel.

The main problem at present is that the 12 volt battery and DC generate so many revs that it floods the engine. I guess there are two basic options, change the gear ratio from 1 to 1 or reduce the voltage. I tried a 6 volt battery but this would not turn over the nitro, so I have ordered another gear wheel. Highest ratio I could get was 13 tooth to go with the existing 19. I dont know if this is enough but will try it when I get it in another couple of days. Meanwhile I am tempted to start building the body but that might be fatal if I have to rearrange the mechanics.

Anyway if I dont get it finished for Villebon it seems that there will still be a multitude of other live diesels in attendance and I wont have to suitcase it by rail from Loughborough to Villebon/Brive and back.

Do you have all the steam you need. I could bring the Spanish loco if you were desperate.






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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:42 pm

David, sorry if you already stated, but are you coming Paris expo in November? i would love to see your diesel there Cool

How has your loco differed from those pictures that i once saw of it with a huge fual tank and battery, as i though the engine was a 2 stroke, but you are now saying it is a 4 stroke. Its most probably me, missing loads that you are posting Embarassed
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:03 pm

David Grantham wrote:

Any way I am committed to the Mark 1 design until I start my second Mark 2 live diesel and in future I will refer to the Mark 1 as a heritage diesel.

Very Happy That's getting a bit like how I feel with the green monster although I hope that will still run

David Grantham wrote:

Do you have all the steam you need. I could bring the Spanish loco if you were desperate.


There's no real obligation to bring anything. It would be/would have been really great to have your diesel at Villebon but don't bust a gut a over that. It's your project over a long time not just for RailExpo. As a compromise maybe some pics that we could display with explanations.

Now....this beautiful Spanish steam loco...and you know what an admirer I am of that and I'm sure it would receive a lot more admirers if it were to come..... Laughing
If you could manage it, it would make a unique and very attractive exhibit.

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:23 pm

Carl,

If I can finish the diesel then I will bring it. If not I will bring the "Spanish" loco. So I will bring one or the other.

Incidentally the steam loco is less than half the weight of the diesel as the diesel is "designed"
to pull rakes up the severe incline into the stock shed. The present Mrs Grantham will be delighted if she only has to carry the steam loco.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:01 pm

I gave up on the last attempt to build a 4 stroke live diesel and after about 2 years of distractions I have started again to build a new 4 stroke DC Live Diesel. Below you can see that the chassis, bogies, ic, coupling and dc are complete and it is now a case of trying to encapsulate all the electronic gubbins into an ever reducing space and anxious wiring looms.  

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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:42 pm




Time to restart the very long running 4 stroke live diesel project that was started 4 or 5 years ago.
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Saint-Oblas



Location : Lyon, France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:27 am

Hello!
Sounds as if I was not the only one to have troubles achieving a live diesel project! I decided I was through with the Polar-Deva, though the Kyosho was somewhat lunatic the last time I tried it!
Now I am on a brother to yours. 4 strokes and a DC brushed motor. The main differences will be the coupling: youy put a mechanical coupling and I tried a timing belt.

Good luck!
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:34 pm

Hello S-O.

I tried fixed couplings, universal couplings, gearboxes, oldham couplings, flexible spiral couplings and finally heavy duty ribbed belts. Even the ribbed belts stripped after a few minutes running. I you can tell me how I will post a picture of my belt prototype which I fully expected to be durable, but wasn't.

I believe the solution I have now is the simplest and strongest. It consists of two stainless steel pins  on the IC shaft that locate in two holes on the DC motor shaft. I fit silicone tubing over the pins to cushion and quieten the coupling. So far the method seems simple and indestructible but I have been constantly amazed by the forces generated by a small 4 stroke engine.

The method has been proven by a gentlemen member of the Birmingham Model Engineers who has perfected a couple of gauge 1 scale model diesels. I cant remember his name but suffice to say it is his idea to use this coupling method, not mine.




Bon chance with your developments,
David
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Saint-Oblas



Location : Lyon, France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:55 pm

Very beautiful model indeed!
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:17 am

S-O, I found pictures of my test rig with ribbed belts. I still find it hard to understand why this method shredded the belts. Maybe I should have experimented with different tensioning devices.

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Saint-Oblas



Location : Lyon, France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel monster, CFG + FEVE   Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 am

I am a bit frighten since I use a very similar setup! On the other hand I found on a swiss site a thread showing an apparently successfull belt usage:

http://www.schienendampf.com/34487225nx30160/dieselbetrieben-und-aehnliches-die-ausnahmen-bestaetigen-die-regel-f8/umbau-einer-lgb-2095-in-eine-live-diesel-lok-t2371.html?sid=a528a151dbafc5051924c0c48e35a9f0

Unfortunately I have not been able to exchange with him since he speaks neither french nor english and my german is really very poor.
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