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 It's back

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: It's back   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:10 pm

Grrrrr.....Very Happy

No point having trains if you don't run them!king

After a few small modifications following a too long lay off in storage and display, it ran again today and for the first time in Normandy.
Running very rich as the glo plug engine was quite tight (despite using special cylinder storage oil).

Just a couple of short rough filmed clips but more to follow when I can get MS Movie Maker working again on my PC.
But you all know the story anyway....Surprised

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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:28 pm

Nice! Sounds a bit scary like a diesel should...
What does it use as fuel?

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:38 pm

Here's another longer clip.



I ran out of camera memory at that point.

Lots of oily smoke as the motor was still tight but it loosened up after a few circuits.

I would like to run it in Paris but the pollution won't go down too well. Shocked

Fuel is usual R/C Nitro synthetic oil mix (10%).
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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:32 pm

....and some more. It's a big file sorry to the dialup users but I can't edit anything or compress at the moment.

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GWhizz



Location : Charente, France

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:02 pm

That's very scary - particularly the top panels looking like they're about to depart!

Ideal Haloween running pale

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Brian
Brian
also blogging at
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:14 pm

I need to clip them down properly but everything was a loose fit today just to get out and get running.

Not too bad really after well over a year idle.

I've just about cured the fuel problem that I had before quite simply by mounting the tank higher.
I've also removed the fan (that is also why the roof panels now move a bit) as it was running too cold.

Managed about 45 minutes with it today and much amusement to a passing tractor driver.

Nice to get back to running trains again. cheers
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Spule 4



Location : Tennessee, USA

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:51 am

I actually kind of like it!

BTW, how is the hand these days Carl? I remember the injury pix you had on GSM!

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:27 am

Spule 4 wrote:
I actually kind of like it!

BTW, how is the hand these days Carl? I remember the injury pix you had on GSM!

Blimey Garrett you have a good memory. That was 3 1/2 years ago.

Thumb's fine thanks.


My diesel projects (yes there will be another in the coming months) are never going to be as technically refined as the likes of Jerry Hyde and Bope Pope in the USA.
But that's how I like it too. Sort of shake rattle and roll.
Who cares if it doesn't make exactly the same sound as a Caterpillar V12. It goes, it's autonomous, it's fun... and occassionally dangerous.What a Face

I get about one comment a month from you tube videos from glo plug engine experts telling me it's going to blow up...I'm still waiting for that day. bom

BTW, do you ever go to Diamondhead?

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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:14 am

Yaaay its nice to see the Citroen Ami of the model diesel world back in action.

Smokey, noisy & smelly - thats what a model diesel should be. Bugger technical refinement, character wins every time.
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Mike B



Location : Just outside Marbella, Spain

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:21 am

Carl Hibbs wrote:

But you all know the story anyway....Surprised

Errr... no I don't being a noob here Embarassed

I think its fantastic! cheers and something I have had bits for in a box in the workshop for years but never found how to get it all together with any success. Any chance of pointing me to the original story or photos of the insides etc? please ... pretty please? Wink

Mike

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:26 am

Mike...pull up a chair..... Laughing

Il était une fois - Once upon a time a daft person (me) living in England decided in the 1980's he wasn't happy with a plastic bodied diesel and mamod hurtling round a 5ft oval of 16mm in a terrace garden.

So about the same time as a nice chap called Dave Watkins was dabbling with his Detritus I started chewing up my fingers and thumb especially, with meccano bits and an old glo plug engine from a stock car. I did manage something moving until 'Maggie T's olive drab Tours' sent me to countries far and wide and trains took a back seat but the project always stayed in my mind.
2 decades later.........
Having built a garden railway and ran live steam the next thing was of course live diesel.
So this monster was started in 2007 and completed in time for Troy's open day later that summer.

That's the background ramble.

The technical....not much really.

It was all documented on my old website which is locked up off line at the moment while I resolve a hosting/publishing problem. When that is sorted I will publish the Live diesel page.

Quite simply it is a small 4cc glo plug engine permanently coupled to an 8amp 12vDC electric motor acting as a simple generator (and starter).
This output is feed into an electronic speed controller and then to 2 Aristocraft bogies.
There are 2 modes of operation:
Direct drive in that the generator output feeds the speed controller or 'Electro' mode where the generator output charges batteries and the battery output feeds the controller.
If the engine cuts out the locomotive continues automatically on batteries.

Radio control is 2 channel, idependantly engine throttle speed and controller output.

I keep fiddling with it periodically and have obviously learnt a lot..especially not to put thumbs in glo plug engine propellers.

Best to have a look on you tube.

Live diesel project
I did a sort of video diary (under my name guette) and there are a number of related films.
The best I think was the 'out takes'.
Diesel Monster the movie


Here is a link here to a topic too.

http://continental-garden-t.motionforum.net/model-locomotives-and-rolling-stock-f13/live-diesel-monster-cfg-feve-t366.htm


Last edited by Carl Hibbs on Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:01 pm

My old website is now viewable at this link.

Old SNCFG website

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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:09 pm

Carl Hibbs wrote:
My old website is now viewable at this link.

Old SNCFG website


Ahh! That brings back some memories! Thanks for publishing again Carl! I love the "autorails" section, it was one of the inspirations for me to start my own freelance railcar.

About the diesel, I was thinking... It's big, it's strong, it's growling, it's green... what is "Hulk" in french?


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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:14 pm

Paulus wrote:
... what is "Hulk" in french?



affraid

Ma belle mère.
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Spule 4



Location : Tennessee, USA

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:26 pm

Glad all is well with the thumb. Pretty bad injury from memory...I actually split (to the bone) a pinky finger open on one of these years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_pLF5JGAEI&feature=related

Not mine, mine is nicely sitting in the shop collecting dust.

No, I have not made it to Diamondhead. Falls at a bad time of the year and is a day's drive from here at least. But, there is a brewery near by that requires a visit also, so maybe some day?

Unfortunately, this would be the year to go, it is a Mamod fest...

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:52 pm

Spule 4 wrote:


No, I have not made it to Diamondhead. Falls at a bad time of the year and is a day's drive from here at least. But, there is a brewery near by that requires a visit also, so maybe some day?

Unfortunately, this would be the year to go, it is a Mamod fest...

I would like to go and Bob Pope invited me and the monster there 2 years ago which sadly I couldn't make. We would have had a real live diesel fest then with his, Jerry Hyde's machine and a couple of Wada GP9s of Scott McDonald.

Diamonhead diesel 2008
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Mike B



Location : Just outside Marbella, Spain

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:31 pm

Thanks for that Carl, I really enjoyed reading and looking at it all and its inspired me to go dig out the box of parts for the one of my own (if I can find it, hoping I didn't lose it in the fire we had a while back). I've seen many attempts to get a live diesel loco working but most have never come to anything but you have made it! cheers

Cheers

Mike

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:17 am

In principal it's not difficult to do.

Just a glo plug engine and an electric motor. Nearly all will behave as a dynamo in reverse.

Please ask away if you need any help. I will be very happyindedd to see another live diesel project take place!

There was also a chap in the G scale society who built a very simple and very small one on a Hartland 040 chassis. There was a video clip of it on their website once but I couldn't find it this morning.

There are a few in Germany too and another French guy built a bo-bo diesel before mine.

I've got two projects that are at an advanced thinking stage. One with a petrol strimmer engine but that will be a very big locomotive.
The other is in a Billard 80 or 150 railcar which will obviously be very small.

I'm looking forward to seeing David Garntham's FEVE monster though. That looks very promising!
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Mike B



Location : Just outside Marbella, Spain

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:54 am

I had a search of the workshop this morning and found a box of bits. However, its been ages (years) since I even looked in this box and what I have is a clapped out diesel (not glow-plug) engine that, as I remember, always was a bitch to start. I hasten to add I have this engine since I was at school some 40 years ago! I think I will see how funds are and start again! The model shops here in Spain are all dedicated to helicopters and radio control cars both electric and infernal combustion so I should have no problem obtaining all the parts.

I note that you have used a 4cc engine. In your opinion minimum size or overkill or just right, just so as I know what size to aim for in purchasing a new one. I did think about an old strimmer, chain saw or leaf blower engine but that may be overkill even for 1:12 scale that I am working in.

I was thinking of using a 12v 7AH Yuasa battery, heavy but not as heavy as the next size up! I can get these from my local DIY Mega-store (LeRoy Merlin if you have those in France) in their Solar Power section. I am somewhat concerned with weight as the heavier the battery, engine, electric motor is the more powerful the engine need be to pump out enough amps to get it all moving, and that doesn't include the weight of the loco itself or its train!

I have a 4Ch Radio Control going spare and thought about using the two spare channels to operate the starter and, the other, the fuel tap. The idea being the loco could be started by opening the fuel tap and operating the starter switch which would also engage the glow plug. And could be stopped by shutting off the fuel tap.

I did find a centrifugal clutch in the box which I thought would allow easier warming up of the engine as on tick over it would disengage from the electric motor and would not have that load to turn. (?)

What electric motor would suit. Had we still had dynamos on cars I would have gone for one of those but alternators are all a bit big, or at least the one in my SUV is!

Either way, my interest has been rekindled and we shall see what happens...

Cheers

Mike

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:30 pm

Now we've started something eh? Laughing

The 'diesel' engine you have is just that in it's principal operation (compression and no plug) but they don't run on real diesel fuel and yes they can be difficult to start and operate successfully. What make is it by the way. Some old ones are collectors items.
They use a bizarre mixture of a kerosene base which can also be difficult to get right.

I had a Frog .50 or 35 that I tried to use in the story above but ditched it for a glo plug engine which I suppose you can say are semi-diesels in operation.

Personally I think you'll have a lot of grief using a 'diesel' although some people get on with them ok in planes.

A simple 2 stroke glo engine is fine. You can go 4 stroke for more lower end torque, lower rpm and sound pitch and smoother operation but then it can be more fiddly to start and tune and more expensive.

Mine is a 'Thunder Tiger .25' 4 cc aero engine but you can go smaller a .18 (3cc) is powerful enough as a minimum I reckon and that which I will use for the railcar.

The car/truck engines have huge cylinder head heat sinks where as the aero engine relies on prop cooling.

I don't think it matters what sort you use irrespective of some of the twaddle posted on my you tube films.
As long as it is adequately cooled. I went into a lot of dialogue with Bob Pope over this and he even measured the temperature with a special thermometer.
It must run hot enough to keep the glo plug alight and mine actual runs a little tool cool with the fan running.
The reason for this is the huge brass engine monting and more importantly the electric motor which is permanently coupled with a heavy brass sleeve to the crankshaft.
This all acts as a giant rotating heatsink.

Because the engine tends to run a bit cool I often keep the glo plug connected and live to its 5ah battery. I've got a 2v on board charging circuit for that if necessary but It seems to be ok for a good 45 mins - 1hour so far.

The electric motor I used is:
MFA RE-850
Input 12 volts DC no load current 1.9 amps (to turn it) 10,000 rpm
Ouput (quoted) 12v 10 amps at about 8,000rpm

Output on test 0-14 v 1.5 - 6 amps no load at up to about 10,000 rpm. I did measure it with a strobe rpm counter.

The voltage and current are proportional to the rpm.

In reality what I get is about 3 volts and 1.5 amps on tick over which is about 2,000 rpm.
This is enough to operate directly 2 Aristo motor bogies at a realistic crawl.

But...not enough to break the input threshold of most electronic speed controllers which stand at about 5 - 7 volts depending on make. (RCS 4.8v Electronize 7.2v)
I use Electronize which in reality works below 6volts input.

This means that you need to rev the engine up to about 5,000 rpm to get above the threshold and smooth response from the speed controller.

Electonic speed control is not an obligation and without it construction is simpler but operation not so smooth.

I had a problem once and the servo failed on the engine resulting in a 22,000 rpm full throttle scare (it is filmed) I ran away expecting the electric motor to be thrown like an out of control mortar bomb into next door's garden but we survived and no damage was done.

The starting battery I use is a 12v 8amp hour Yuasa which fits in a wagon if I need.

I have also bank of sub c nicads under the engine giving 3.8 amps. These were meant to start the engine but are just not powerful enough. They will at a pinch restart from warm.
These are used as traction batteries in the event of engine stalling and can be charged from the generator (but not very efficiently).

In reality what I do is start the engine using the (or any, wifey's car) lead acid battery and then remove it but getting lazy I just tow the small lead acid battery around permanently connected now and if it stalls I just press the starter button.
I could redesign the loco to accomodate it and there is enough space if I replace the nicads with it.

The brass chassis and bogies cope with all the weight ok which is about 3.5 kg.

Anything else.....?

Do you think you will have something built for next years CFG diesel and live steam gala! bounce
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Mike B



Location : Just outside Marbella, Spain

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:35 pm

Carl Hibbs wrote:
Now we've started something eh? Laughing

The 'diesel' engine you have is just that in it's principal operation (compression and no plug) but they don't run on real diesel fuel and yes they can be difficult to start and operate successfully. What make is it by the way. Some old ones are collectors items.
They use a bizarre mixture of a kerosene base which can also be difficult to get right.


Do you think you will have something built for next years CFG diesel and live steam gala! bounce


I just remembered to answer this Carl.... Embarassed

The diesel engine I have is a 0.976cc / 0.059cu in DC Ltd. 'Quickstart' Marine with water cooled cylinder head and flywheel. Its still in its original box and I suppose in good condition for a 40+ year old engine! Very Happy I still can't get it to start, give me a 9 litre truck enigine and I'm fine! Laughing



As to whether I will have something for next year.... well we'll see how the money situation goes (just had to buy a new car... Crying or Very sad )

Mike

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:40 pm

Obviously that's not going to be really suitable for a locomotive but I'm sure that it is worth a few quid or pesetas as a collectors item.

Maybe worth contacting this man.

Davies Charlton

Shame it won't start though.......
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Mike B



Location : Just outside Marbella, Spain

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:06 pm

No, I agree its a bit weedy for that.

I did wonder about a water cooled cylinder-head coming into its own when encased in a body, much like a boat, but whereas I suppose it might apply to a diesel it would not to a glow-plug, as you say you need to keep the revs up to keep them hot.

Thanks for the link, a very interesting read. I sent off a photo then after more reading found a picture of my engine with the following caption;

"Origninally produced in 1957 this was another of the Allbon engines. This is a second version with the round streamlined plastic tank. First engines had a cast tank that mounted to the rear case screws. The aircraft versions had a blue anodized cylinder muff.
Only a small number were produced in the pictured marine configuration."

So it looks like its one of the first ones and rarer in that it is a marine config. bounce I'll treat it to a clean and polish and put it away more carefully... Rolling Eyes

Mike

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Carl Hibbs
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Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: It's back   Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:59 pm

I only know about these things because (and thanks to) a former boss of mine called Jack Barnes who was a perfectionist expert skilled modeller.
He built and ran a fleet of replica R/C model aircraft of 'Flyng Corps' era in the late 1970's.
Some of his engines were vintage diesels.

In those day integrated circuits and nicads were still a dream. We used leclanché cells in a beer crate...!

Jack Barnes built and flew 2 model aircraft for the TV series Flambards - if anyone is old enough to remember.

I actually made the cokpit facia for one of the planes, a Bristol if my memory serves me.

Incidently his father was a wing commander at RAF Tangmere after the war when they were flying Gloster Meteors.
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