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 Live diesel 2

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:16 pm

Well despite the freezing cold I have made a small start with the next diesel locomotive.

I haven't yet decided whether it be a locomotive or a railcar.

If it is a locomotive then it will be based on a Brissonneau 'VAR' automotrice which is a twin engined lightweight bogie motor luggage type van.



If it is a railcar then I may use an existing Billard resin body.

The chassis dimensions are similar.



The engine in the bag is a .15 car type that I bought new on e bay for £16

I have made 2 silencer sytems that I want to try.

First is a pot boiler type using 3 diameters of copper tube with holes drilled through.









The small diameter brass tubes are upper for fuel tank pressure and lower for oil drainage.

Then I decided to make another silencer with flat baffles in it.

This is a short piece of 20mm dia coppper tube with three slots cut 3/4 of the way through alternate sides and then strips of brass soldered in the slots.







The exhaust manifold to the engine is a proprietary item sourced on e bay new for about £3.50



I will set the engine up on a test bed next and see what the silencers sound like.

Although for me sound isn't really that important it is often noted and mocked looking at the comments around.
So if I can mute the 'manic bee' sound and induce a bit of a 'growl' then I think we are improving.


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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:26 pm

I know it's a bit tricky to do whilst experimenting ,but could you keep a list of the bits and bobs and sources.
This is something I really want to build,and would rely heavily on 'experience'.
Cheers Smile
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:00 pm

Sparkeswood wrote:
I know it's a bit tricky to do whilst experimenting ,but could you keep a list of the bits and bobs and sources.
This is something I really want to build,and would rely heavily on 'experience'.
Cheers Smile

This is going to be one of at least two or three diesel projects over the coming months.

I'm saving a load of bits for when you come over and we build one in a weekend....

I really want to try a number of different things like using a brushless motor to generate electricity and other forms of transmission even.

There are 3 projects ongoing on the forum so collating all the information would be a good idea. I could put that under a sub-heading.

I'll try and keep a list privately too.
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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:28 pm

Thank goodness for that .I thought you had forgotten. Embarassed
This is one of my highlights for the new year Very Happy
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:07 pm

Hi Carl
I like the idea of the exhaust system that you are making. It has just given me a few ideas...
I would like to also start another project and i will probably start collecting resources. I would to make a dual bogie chassis will which give me alot more room to work with. I would probably make it wider as well, like a g scale loco but to run on 32mm. Do you know where i can get hold of some cheap bogies?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:25 pm

Sparkeswood wrote:
Thank goodness for that .I thought you had forgotten. Embarassed
This is one of my highlights for the new year Very Happy


Oh no....certainly haven't forgotten. The waft of Rolvenden sausages mixed with nitro fumes and a glass of red wine..... Laughing

Anton,

David Grantham is the man to ask for 32mm.

I would suggest also a look on e bay for old Lima O gauge stuff.

Try this.

Lima power bogie

I'm not even sure you need two power bogies. Maybe one would be sufficient?

If you need I have an old spare simple 4 wheel 32mm gauge chassis with a 6 volt motor doing nothing.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:43 am

Anton, I have found 32mm bogies a bit of a problem. I think the options are

1 Essel
2 Old 0 gauge bogies eg Lima, Triang Big Train
3 Finescale 0 gauge bogies
4 P line
5 Self build including modifying 45mm bogies

I think for me option 1 is favourite.
I am told by an 0 gauge expert that the Lima/Triang bogies might not be man enough for outdoor 16mm.
Finescale bogies may require the wheels to be changed to run through SM32 points
The P line ones look interesting but I am unsure of the quality of these Indian manufactured imports.
I did not fancy building my own as my project list is already exceeding my time resources.

Only issue for me with the Essel option is the need to disguise the plate frame bogie sides and that should be easy enough.




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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:45 am

Cheers David

Yes i was told that Lima bogies are not ideal and usually the are poorly powered. I have a traing big big blue flyer diesel which i converted to remote control and I know its only plastic bogies but they are just to small and flimsy. Well I have now been given a electric chassis by Carl which will probably serve as part of my next project. Taking a look at your photos, you have an amazing project going on. I like the fact you want to have it run on both kinds of power. I also need to make my next model much bigger as i see you've got much more room to work with on yours then i had on mine. obviously yours has two bogies, giving space in between and i need to have some similar set up. how did you turn an electric chassis into a bogie that can swivel?
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:29 am

Anton, all the Essel chassis I have incorporate a center pivot and can therefore be used as a bogie. These are those in the pictures of the FEVE diesel and are as used on the bogie diesel locomotives produced by the company called Locomotion.

One problem I forgot to mention in my previous post is that historically there are two versions of the Essel bogie. The old one , which had worm drive and the new one which has bevel gears.

Unless I have just been unlucky the old worm geared bogies I have do not run smoothly on gradients. I think this is something to do with the lack of thrust bearings which allow the worm to travel tangentially/horizontally across the gear wheel. The new Essel bogies have bevel gears which run fine but do not allow parking on a gradient as the loco just runs downhill as the gradient increases, particularly if the loco is very heavy. Servo operated brakes would be interesting !!!

For my live diesel project I am using a spare pair of the old Essel bogies which if the project is successful I may upgrade to the new ones. Also I planned to upgrade to a four stroke nitro to reduce the revs and get a better sounding loco.





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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:36 pm

I really need to get hold of a cheap 4 stroke engine but cannot find a thing...any suggestions as where to look? Ive got my diesel runs is an essel chassis with bevel gears and it runs nicely. I have heard about their worm drive problems before and luckily i got the bevel kind Smile

Carl - you should concider having a buy/sell part to this forum so as poeple can advertise stuff to other members...just a thought Very Happy

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:46 am

There is already Anton. It's a sub heading:

http://continental-garden-t.motionforum.net/for-sale-f16/

4 strokes are very expensive....more than some petrol engines.

For the time being I'm sticking with a 2 stroke and seeing how low I can lower the engine revs both in speed and sound.

I'm having a look at this gadget:

Plug ignition

It's a system to ignite the glo plug which allows slower engine running or to be more precise when the engine is running slow the plug is ignited.

There's is nothing wrong in keeping the glop plug energised anyway if you have suitable battery power or constant 1.5/2v dc source. I already have a high current circuit that drops 12v dc down to 2v.

I've been doing that for 3 years with only one change of plug!

If you then add a fuel pump it could be possible to lower the idle speed even more. study
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:17 pm

I have been searching for a 12v to 1.5v permanently lit glow plug circuit and saw this.

http://www.webx.dk/rc/scooter/scooter.htm


What's the odds that a certain CGT member will build and operate one of those "Hitler flying banana things" at the next CGT open day.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:02 pm

By flying banana I meant one of these


http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/10/01/odd-propellerdriven.html
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Bearcastle



Location : Brie

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:34 pm

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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:10 pm

I have actually been doing some research on how to dieselize a nitro engine.

i found this video which has some good description on how, what and why

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpit-eWP-I&feature=channel

Im still searching about the benefits but it seems to give lower RPM and can run on other fuels. not 100% on that so dont quote me haha

take a look Very Happy
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 pm

David Grantham wrote:
I have been searching for a 12v to 1.5v permanently lit glow plug circuit ....


I actually bought my circuit from an Australian hobby electronics company about 3 years ago. I will try and find their details.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:45 pm

Not a great deal of progress on construction due to the sub-artic weather here.

However I have been doing a bit of research and testing of brushless (BLDC) motors.
These are becoming increasingly common in electric model applications.

Sometime ago I was given advice from a number of sources as to why I was not using this type to generate electricity (like an alternator) instead of the old fashioned brushed motor.

So after a long while in the deliberating stage here we are:

There is a lot on the net about these type of motors so I won't bother with detailed explanations.
Brushless motor Wikipedia
Suffice to say that they are not AC motors nor are they true alternators.

I bought two quality motors from Hong Kong Wink.



Here they are against a standard 550 type can motor.

The orange one is 910Kv and the smaller blue is 1600Kv ....note Kv and not kV which is kilovolts.
the Kv motor rating is RPM per volt. which means that 1 volt will make each one turn 910 rpm or 1600 rpm respectively.

My interest primarily is to see if these are really any use as a generator as people have suggested. They are certainly proven mechanically more efficient than a brushed motor.
They require a special pulse type converter/controller to make them turn.

To get electricity out of them or more precisely a DC output you need a means of rectification.
They are not AC motors but behave in a similar way and the three 'phases' need to converted.



You can see the simple 6 diode device in the pic above.

So on test at 2800 rpm - simulating the idle speed of a glo plug engine:
The small 1600Kv produced 0.75 volts and the larger one produced 2.2 volts
This roughly equates mathematically to 2800/1600 = 1.75 and 2800/910 = 3 minus the losses for the diodes.

I haven't yet looked at the current output.

So in summary yes they are efficient but not much practical use so far for me as a generator.

To get a decent voltage output say 10 volts I would need to turn the 910 at over 10,000 rpm. That would mean the glo plug engine screaming away.

There are a few more powerful motors that have a lower Kv rating and would generate more electricity for lower revs but I think the way to go is with a traditional 24 volt motor generator I have already tested giving out a high voltage at low revs.

The BLDC motors have some potential though as traction motors.....

TBC. study
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:51 pm

A bit more experimenting...



Connected both motors back to back.

Pulsed output from 910Kv dirives direct the 1600Kv at a proportional speed.....and you can reverse the outer phases red and yellow leads and the receiving motor indeed rotates in reverse.

Voltage output measured across the the doide rectifier was 2volts exactly @ 2800 rpm driving the 910Kv.

So there could be a possibility of using BLDC motors in this way. The good thing is that there is very little loss. cheers
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Sparkeswood



Location : Kent,England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:25 pm

I must admit that I didn't expect to see a rectified 3 phase star supply in modelling Very Happy
but I'm avidly following this.
I had to convert some big motors recently to run on a new system.
The good old 'AC Motors Book' all of a sudden became very useful.The panel engineer for the new system was an absolute gem.Proper old school.
I learnt loads. Laughing
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:54 pm

It's taxing my (simple) brain a bit Troy.

These BLDC motors are not actually AC in that sinusoidal current is not used. Although there are many different types of AC motors.

I would like to get hold of a scope and see what wave pattern they operate on and indeed chuck out.

Then I could maybe make a simple 'inter-motor' regulator based around an on/off pulse timer.

Each leg or phase gives out a pulse of some sort and you can feel it when you turn the larger motor by hand.

It's interesting playing around.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:16 am

Hi Carl
I am sorry if you haver already explained this previously but could you tell me the benefit as using a brushless motor as the generator as i have a few brushless motors that are on some aircraft that i could probably salvage and I am keen as they are 1/4 of the size Smile
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:39 pm

They're much more efficient in converting electricity to movement and vice versa due to their mechanical construction.

I will pursue this a bit more when I get some free time. Neutral

I have over 150 students to teach and we're at a busy time in the school calender at the moment.

Although I'm thinking of cunning ways in which to introduce trains to them as part of their learning.... king study
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:50 pm

Presumably brushless motors are sufficiently efficient and light to suspend from the nitro shaft with little more than an anti rotational strap.

Incidentally I broke an expensive (£20) flexible coupling yesterday. It survived about 40 mins of test running and was rated at 12k rpm so I was surprised that it failed so quickly. I was running the dc generator loosely fastened down so maybe it would have been better clamped so that the couplind did all the compensation. I guess with two forms of compensation some of the time vibration will be increased and sometimes reduced depending on the interaction and interference between the two motions.

http://www.budgetbeam.co.uk/

This live diesel thing is very exciting and even more time consuming !!!
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:52 pm

I should add that it was rated at 12k provided the 3d alignment was within tolerances and who knows the answer to that one.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:18 pm

Interesting (and expensive) findings David.

The brushless motors are indeed much lighter but I don't really know whether they'll be man enough to start a glo plug engine.

I should have some tome next week to play around a bit.
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