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 Live diesel 2

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Carl Hibbs
Admin



PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:18 pm

Interesting (and expensive) findings David.

The brushless motors are indeed much lighter but I don't really know whether they'll be man enough to start a glo plug engine.

I should have some tome next week to play around a bit.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:38 pm

Now that is here it is time to get back in that workshop and do some work.

Well not a great deal really but just putting bits together and seeing how they look.







The outrunner BLDC motor weighs less than an aircraft propeller or a car clutch so it can just hang on the crankshaft with something like a spigot or strap to stop the backplate spinning.
The chassis dimensions are 430mm x 90mm. The steel baseplate will sit below in a well so that engine/motor are as low down as possible.
Simplicity is the order of the day and no fancy electrics will be employed.

I'm even going to leave the hand starter and have an external gloplug lighter.

[sic]

....as on a certain other model......... affraid
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:48 pm

Carl
thats coming along nicely...have you tried running the engine with this kind of motor attached to it yet? (brushless). Does it have the power to start the glow plug then?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:49 pm

No it hasn't been run yet. I hope to do that this weekend.
It won't have the power (torque) to start the engine. I am going to leave the pull starter in situ for the time being.
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:49 am

Nice piece of work, Carl.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:24 pm

Carl Hibbs wrote:
I am going to leave the pull starter in situ for the time being.

That didn't last long.....about 10 minutes. Cheap Chinese engines with cheap pull starters.

Started up the engine a couple of times and the return spring broke. After repairing it, the cord then broke and then the pulley....!

So I took the whole thing off which leaves a 12mm nut on the other end of the crankshaft and I will use a cordless drill with a socket head in the chuck tomorrow to start it.

I might also try and make a hand crank starter like the old cars used to have.
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French Chuffed



Location : Droitwich UK

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:59 am

I would think you would need some type of tapered dog for the hand start, having hand started a Landrover before now and had it run in reverse with the starting handle flying round, not having been disengaged turning the wrong way.

Those were the days where Men were Men, and vehicles had starting handles.
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:35 pm

A tapered dog? Like this?


How ancient was that Land Rover anyway?

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:27 pm

French Chuffed wrote:
I would think you would need some type of tapered dog for the hand start, having hand started a Landrover before now and had it run in reverse with the starting handle flying round, not having been disengaged turning the wrong way.

Those were the days where Men were Men, and vehicles had starting handles.

You managed to start a Landrover by hand....! Shocked

That's something most of the ex Royal Corps of Transport couldn't manage. Indeed, mens work only, that's why I left....!queen

.......At the 'other' (non flywheel) crankshaft end of most plull-start glo-plug engines is a one-way bearing and thrust bolt to which the pull starter is engaged. Removal of the pull starter mechanism reveals this loose fitting bolt on the end of the backplate.
You can buy an inexpensive conversion kit to allow remote electric starting with a rod ('rotostart').

This I have done and will continue after my transatlantic sejour.

It is difficult (and I found a tad dangerous) to start direct with a socket head in a drill. What a Face

The weekend was less than fruiful having managed to break an elderly second engine's crankshaft...all this is without any generator load attached.

Sadly it was false economy buying bargain 'cheap' engines off e bay.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:37 am

Hi Carl

do you think that this 700 motor would be able to start a glow plug engine and genirate electricity sufficient to power 1 12V motor?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MODEL-BOAT-700-SIZE-6-18-VOLT-ELECTRIC-MOTOR-NEW-/130422085581?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item1e5dc317cd#ht_730wt_698
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:31 am

Anton,

I could not start an ASP15 nitro with the 700 series motor in this link and upgraded to the 900 series which is fine.

http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/stuff1.php

If you want a the 700 series, that I bought new, it is yours.
Incidentally if you know what the 700 and 900 refers to please let me know.

David
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:42 am

Hi David

Thank you for that offer...

sorry i completely neglected the fact that you have much experience with trial and error in this field, so the question although not stated was aimed at you as well. The reason i want a engine smaller then the MFA 850 i have is the actual size of the motor as it takes up to much room on my little shunter which does not allow me to have a big enough fuel tank and radio gear. I would love to try out your 700 for myself to see exactly what is what.

I am sorry i do not know what the numbers actually refer..but i will look it up and let you know what i can find

how is the progress with your diesel?

Anton
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:39 pm

Glad to see see you back David. I hope the surgery went ok.

I'm at a bit of a stalemate with this project at the moment having destroyed two cheap engines before any generator was connected.

One never even started up and the other fired a few times but now has distorted its crankshaft.

I will have to invest in a better quality engine I think. Some of this rubbish from China is not worth it.

I still have a smaller Kyosho GX12 to try but I need an 8.5 mm carb for it.
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:28 pm

Amazing that a knee replacement can be less painfull than trying to connect the two shafts between the nitro and DC. I have obtained a rather expensive clamped stainless steel flexible coupling and will test this as soon as I can get down the garden to the workshop.

Apart from doubts about the coupling, the battery power systems seems to work fine and the nitro/generator turns over the traction motors so I should soon find out what happens when I join the two subsystems together. If I had the workshop skills and facilities I think I would have the shafts parallel to each other and probably gear down the generator.

Carl, do you have any ideas about whether an hydraulic coupling could be made and used. Would be nice to have a "kind of real" Diesel Hydraulic.

Anton, if you want the 700 series motor pm me your address and I will send it to you. Do you want an essel bogie (old type) as well. Please advise.

Carl, I have so far used an ASP15 which I assume is Chinese. It appears to be adequate and at about 35 new from "Just Engines" might be worth a go.

Maybe I should nt worry about the coupling as the way my live diesel is configured I could run the nitro unconnected whilst driving the loco from the battery. Who would know ? Yes I am joking.



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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:07 pm

For hydraulic transmission your could look here.

Hydraulic Transmission

I did think about pneumatic transmission once when I took apart an old 'air drill' and found a good 'motor' inside. Just need to make a compressor out of the glo plug engine.

The Just Engines site is good and the ASP products look okay to me.
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:53 pm

With a couple of pumps, a small reservoir, tubing, and some thick fluid (glycol or glycerine) you could probably cobble together a hydraulic drive. You would still need some sort of coupling between one pump and the prime mover and the other pump and the driven axle (or motor), so I'm not sure you'd solve your problem. In fact. I think you will have doubled the number of couplings and you will probably also introduce heat issues as the fluid will soak up some of the power as heat. It would also be quite a mess if it developed a leak.

I don't think there's any way to avoid some sort of coupling and the alignment issues that go with it. Sad

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:24 pm

Bill, I am not an engineer so apologies if this is impossible but I was thinking of a fluid coupling
whereby the shaft on the nitro was connected to an impeller which was enclosed in a bath of fluid and used fluid resistence to drive another similar impeller attached to the generator. So not a true diesel hydraulic just a live diesel electric with a fluid coupling.

I am assuming that this would avoid shaft alignment issues but have no idea whether it is physically practical.
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:13 pm

You're basically describing a torque convertor, which must be properly aligned as well or you're going to be wearing out seals frequently. It will also transform a good bit of the power output into heat, whether it's aligned or not.

It's not impossible and no criticism is intended for you or your idea; I just don't think it's practical and it won't solve the alignment issue.

Have you considered driving the "generator" through a gearset? I don't believe alignmnet issues would be as critical with a simple pair of gears, one pressed onto each shaft. Nobody would notice any additional noise the gears might make. either with that nitro wailing away.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:29 pm

Thanks Bill

I have come to the same conclusion as you have, that a simple gear wheel on each shaft is probably the best solution, after all, this is the configuration used in mass produced nitro model cars.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:40 pm

At last a little time in the workshop. cheers

After destroying two engines I managed to cobble together bits for a small Kyosho GX12 car type engine.
These are twitchy, nervy little creatures to get going and at the moment (new main engine body) it is not very smooth but it'll run in ok I'm sure.

Obviously the main thing is to generate electricity and I wanted to use a BLDC motor as mentioned previously.

Here's the test rig with a simple rubber wheel mounted on the motor and pushed manually against the the engine shaft.



It works in principal and of course it needs refining but the idea is simple and effective.
My only concern is the lateral strain on the bearings of both engine and motor.

However I am going to fit a clutch (when I can get the right one) and gears which I've already got and I think that will be the way to go.

The good thing is that the assembly can fit easily in a space of 180mm x 80mm.

I took some film of it running which I'll post later.
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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:50 pm

I would love to make a comment commending your ingenuity, but unfortunately i don't understand a word of what you are saying!!

Question Rolling Eyes
mikey
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:37 pm

I have a clutch bell and fittings which came off my force 15..if you think they would fit, they are yours Smile
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:34 pm

Anton, yes please. I'm after a complete clutch assembly, that is shoes, springs, bearings and bell plus flywheel if possible but have a two pin flywheel already if your clutch is a 2 shoe clutch. I also need the spring clip (e clip) that holds the shoes/friction plate to the flywheel and the clip that holds the bell to the shaft - I have a 5mm shaft.
Trying to get a complete Kyosho clutch is difficult as was the carburettor. scratch
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:50 pm

Here is a short video of the mini beast running.

These engines are used in 1/10 scale cars and it seems they don't have much rev range or rather much range speed control.
As it's running-in I kept the mixture rich and below about half revs.



The BLDC (brushless DC 3 phase) motor is rated at 910kv this is RPM/volt.
And roughly guessing the speeds that the glo plug engine at idle is about 2,000rpm and half throttle of 10,000 rpm and working out the transmision ratio between the axle shaft 5mm dia and the rubber wheel 25mm dia. shows that BLDC motor rating is correct in that in gives out 1 volt per 1,000rpm approx.

I will need to play around with the transmission ratios between the two.

But it has prospects.

Sorry about the crappy vid quality but it's not easy with 2 hands and 3 things to do.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:39 pm

Well have a look at these photos..all ive got is what you can see...dont know if it can be of use to you?





And i love the CGT trains logo on the video..would love to incorporate that in future diesel vids if you wouldnt mind? Very Happy

Let me know...
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:42 pm

Those bits would be great if you don't mind parting with them.

I'll try and send a high res logo by e mail.
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PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Today at 6:08 am

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