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 Live diesel 2

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Carl Hibbs
Admin



PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:42 pm

Those bits would be great if you don't mind parting with them.

I'll try and send a high res logo by e mail.
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:42 pm

Sure is a noisy thing. Looks like some sort of mad scientist's workshop, with all those wires and stuff about. Great fun.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:41 am

KleineDicke wrote:
Sure is a noisy thing. Looks like some sort of mad scientist's workshop, with all those wires and stuff about. Great fun.

Don't know about scientist but mad is pretty true. geek
The noise...and the smoke and smell are all part of it. It's alive!



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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri May 06, 2011 4:35 pm

Anton,

The reason for the large engine has to do with the idle speed. The engine idles at 2,000 which is "fairly slow" for a glow engine. The torque convertor is designed to operate between 3,000 and 10,000 RPM. However in practice I cannot see it going much over 8,000 RPM. This is a Gauge '3' model so all it will ever pull will be carriages and wagons. Here I have to blushingly admit that although I have three completed locos I have no rolling stock for them to pull -if truth be told I have no track laid as yet either!!!

The loco will never move above 45 mph(scale) and the gears are quite robust, "gear grade" nylon is almost as tough as aluminium -with the added benefits that it never needs oiling and it machines easily.

The loco is 68cm long 12cm wide and weighs in at 15Kg (dry). The gearbox gives me 1:90 reduction but with the torque convertor it "slips" thus providing a smoother transition than a direct drive system. I can vary the amount of slip by the level of oil in the torque convertor. I won't bore you with the maths but a torque convertor provides the same torque regardless of the rate of spin -provided you are in the "solidity band" of the fluid used.

The maths show that it would be possible to hit 82MPH (scale) at 8,000 RPM however I think that this would be pushing the "envelope" a bit too much....

regards

ralph
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun May 08, 2011 8:29 am

The first start-up is always a bit of a 'shake-down'. My first time about 4 years ago resulted in a well documented serious thumb injury. pale

Some product news that I found.

1.
Conrad have restarted selling a complete reaady-to-run RC car chassis for 169 euros.
Conrad car chassis

It certainly has possibilities when you add up the separate cost of individual items.

2.
Reliable petrol engines are becoming smaller and cheaper. These are popular with aero modellers and I have been keeping track of developments.

This latest mini:

15cc petrol engine

They also make a 20cc engine; Both engines are less than 75mm wide with a rear mounted carb. so would suitably fit in the body of G scale traction.

This has to be cost effective and better than a 4 stroke glo plug engine. scratch
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue May 10, 2011 8:56 pm

After dodging the fighting students in my classes at school I managed to sneak in a bit of workshop time and very productive too.

Some cobbling together clutch parts old and new and unsure if it would actually function correctly I connected up the BLDC motor via 1 : 1.5 gearing and.......

It all worked.







It was tested thoroughly for a good hour tonight with positive results.
The BLDC motor is capable of handling the very high revs of the nitro engine.
At about 3/4 throttle it gave out 20 volts.
This was tested with an LGB loco on rollers
The clutch worked perfectly and I was able to stop it with my finger at idle...dangerous!

This Kyosho GX12 engine is very small and a bit twitchy but is getting better each time I run it. The fuel flow needs to be just right, a tad too much and it floods, not enough and it stalls.

The whole set up is very straightforward, no couplings just proprietory gears. No fancy electrics except the diode converter. I don't think a speed controller is necessary unless you gear the motor up and run the engine at lower revs just above idle. A reverse polarity switch is all that maybe required.
The pull starter is adequate and simple with no batteries.
A single channel RC is sufficient.
The whole module could fit in a space 180mm x 80mm.



I can reduce the exhaust noise too with plastic pipe and foam filter. I did some experiments later today after the pics and video and almost completely silenced the engine.




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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue May 10, 2011 9:12 pm

Sounds like a thoroughly successful experiment Dr Hibbs!!
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed May 11, 2011 9:54 am

Not really so much of an experiment, that was 4 years a go now, but a rethink based on what has progressed and sharing ideas with others. It's still a bit crazy though and I'm getting addicted to the nitro..... Twisted Evil

I think this is the general direction that I will go with live diesel now.

For this particular model I have a brass chassis frame ready and motor bogies.
I need to add radio control, fuel tank and refine the exhaust system and then build a body for which I think I will use 2mm birch ply.
The wood helps with the sound deadening and these .12 engines do scream a bit.

Looking good for a 'post-bac' late June track trial. bounce
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed May 11, 2011 4:49 pm

Good stuff Carl and well done.

I have come to the conclusion that gears are probably the best way of coupling the two shafts in my design. I have been searching the net for brass gears and am amazed that there does n't seem to be any suitable supplies in the UK via the Engineering sites.. Only thing I can think of is to drive over to Birmingham tomorow to visit a large Nitro car dealership. I dont need a ratio, other than 1 to 1, as the components are well matched but still not happy with those expensive flexible couplings.

Hopefully I am only a few weeks away from having a working chassis but I have been here before a few times.

Bon chance to all those afficted by Live Diesels.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed May 11, 2011 5:58 pm

It was a comment from you a while back that set me off looking at gearing.

I source(d) my gears on French e bay,
They are steel, module 1 (1mm pitch) with a 5mm bore which seems to be standard with most geared clutch bell housings. They cost about 6 euros each.

I don't think you could permanently gear the engine and motor without a clutch as this would make remote starting more difficult and maybe impossible with a pull start.

Although there is much less physical resistance in a BLDC motor than a convential DC motor.

Aero engines would need something different as they don't have a pull start so as you say a 1 to 1 gearing may be all right.

I'm now thinking whether a BLDC motor would be able to turn over a nitro engine....... Idea

What I have discovered recently as these nitro engines will start with very little force once they are clean, set up and warm.
Old fuel inside goes quite gummy even in just a few days.

So...
A few drops of special after run oil after a session helps avoid that,
Pre heat with hair dryer.
Turn over engine a few times without glo plug helps loosen things up.
Clean gloplug in alcohol/cellulose thinners because that gets a bit gummy too.
Don't flood engine with fuel.
Pull starter only about 2/3rds out with a few quick strokes rather than trying to start a lawnmower.
Start on slightly rich mixture and lean after.

I think we really must arrange a diesel gathering somewhere, sometime even if we just plan ahead for RailExpo......
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed May 11, 2011 9:00 pm

Carl, thanks for your extremely helpful synopsis. Nevertheless there is one item I did not understand when you said
""I don't think you could permanently gear the engine and motor without a clutch as this would make remote starting more difficult and maybe impossible with a pull start""
If one is using an ESC and a gearing of 1 to 1 then presumably starting would be no different to starting your Brissonneau. Did you mean a clutch is required if one is not using an ESC or are there other aspects that I have not understood ?
Apologies if this a daft question and thanks in ant.

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu May 12, 2011 5:59 am

I was referring just to starting externally with a hand or separate electric starter.
Which from experience has to have the minimum load. The pull starters for example will pull nothing more than the engine itself without breaking.

If you are using and permanent dynamo/starter as I used on the monster then gearing as you described could be a better way than a shaft coupling.

The thing now I realise is that a dynamo is inefficient in generating electricity compared to a BLDC motor.





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ralphbrades



Location : Derby UK

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue May 17, 2011 4:32 pm

Carl,

Having built a dynamo I have to agree that they are not worth the effort!!! I had intended to use a stepper motor to power my diesel electric but your use of an outside runner motor appeals to me as it is so simple. And after having hand cut 24, 30Gauge thick Grain Oriented Silicon Steel laminations, to wind onto, to build Gramme Ring dynamo I can only say is:

DON'T DO IT!!!

Pardon the curiosity, the diodes you are using -are they Schottky or simple silicon power diodes? Are you dumping the output into a dustbin sized capacitor and then using a Voltage Reg, (or possibly a jacked up 2N3055 with a zener at the base), to an ESC?

In my surfing I have found a water cooled 500 series outside runner motor that could be useful for my diesel electric and gas turbine electric. The prospect of the latter project has terrified several members of the Gauge '3' Society and G1MRA....

regards

ralph
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue May 17, 2011 5:28 pm

The diodes are simple standard power diodes rated at about 5 amps I think.
No capacitor and no voltage regulator or esc.

The rectified output from the BLDC was smooth enough to run dc motors without any jerky movement.

I'm still experimenting with this and I would like to get a 'scope and see what sort of wave form comes out plus how much current these motors are capable of producing.

The great thing is that the voltage is linear in proportion to the rpm and seems limitless...!

Also... The output from BLDC motor will drive another BLDC motor direct, unrectified.
And if you reverse the 2 of the 3 phases wires the receiving motor will run in reverse...!

Also... I have started playing about crudely with a 'missing pulse' speed control circuit, by putting 1 of the phases through a simple on/off '555' oscillating timer and ........I will let you know if it works.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun May 22, 2011 4:32 pm

I know this is completely off topic but does anyone know how to revive a liithium pollymer battery (3 cell) as i was using it in the hymek the other day and left the switch in the on position overnight and know the battery wont charge, even when using a balance charger. Does anyone have any experience in these kinds of batteries?
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun May 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Anton I'm sorry to say but an over discharged Lithium Poly battery is to my knowledge finished and irrecoverable. I've seen ads for miracle restorers/chargers however but I don't know if they really work. There are chemical reactions that I believe are irreversible in a discharged battery.

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun May 22, 2011 6:47 pm

Aha.........more testing.

Now radio controlled with a single channel 27mhz unit using a Playmobil transmitter.





Also gear ratio changed now 1:1.5 so the BLDC spins faster that the nitro engine. This allows the engine to run at a slower speed and the BLDC produces more volts.
The downside is the take up between clutch and BLDC is not so smooth.
I may try a straight 1:1 ratio later on.

The servo is fitted with a very simple pcb divided into two sections and wiper contacts fitted to the servo arm. This acts as a reverser for the DC traction output.

I played around with noise suppression and I can quite confidently eliminate most of the exhaust noise with plastic tubing and gauze.

I also replaced the wooden sandwich base plate with pieces of steel as this helps considerably the cooling.

Here's the latest workshop vid for those (few) interested.



I am waiting for some 85 mm w/b motor bogies from the US to arrive and then I can put a locomotive together based on a Brissoneau at the start of this thread.

I'm also on the look out for another Kyosho GX12 and a similar BLDC motor to make a second unit.

With careful running in these Kyosho motors are quite respectable. Today I didn't use any tools on it. I just connected the fuel, primed it up, connected the glo plug and after a few pulls and a bit of flooding off it went, no stalling and getting smoother every run. Nice........ Smile
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philkelly



Location : Vienne, France and Islington. London

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun May 22, 2011 9:18 pm

I would never dare do anything like this, but watching the developments, the effort and the dialogue between specialists is absolutely fascinating.

Power to you all (and hopefully soon to your bogies too)

Can't wait to see it running!
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David Grantham



Location : Midlands, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu May 26, 2011 7:12 pm

Carl, I managed to get a pair of 19 tooth hardened steel pinion gears from a specialist RC Car shop in Birmingham. They are HPI Racing Part 100918.

Presumably it is possible to mesh gears without the shafts necessarily being the same vertical height providing the shafts are parallel and the required distance apart ????

Incidentally where did you get your gears from.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu May 26, 2011 8:34 pm

Yes, as long as they mesh correctly that's the only criteria. I would allow a tiny bit of play in the mesh.

Most of the gears I have seen on RC cars are module 1 (1mm pitch) this seems to be a general standard for clutch bell housings with a gear or gears (some have 2).

I bought mine from a trader on French e bay at about 5 euros each but the packaging on them was from the U.S. originally and marked BSD Racing parts. In French they are called 'pignon'.

I had a look the web and the gears you have bought look pretty much the same as mine.

....Does this mean further developments are in progress....???? bom

I'm building a chassis for mine at the moment. I can't wait for the bogies to arrive so I'm making a simple 4 wheeled chassis with a single powered axle.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:15 am

Carl Hibbs wrote:


I'm building a chassis for mine at the moment. I can't wait for the bogies to arrive so I'm making a simple 4 wheeled chassis with a single powered axle.
Well I did..... Cool


I'll leave you with this...more details later when I come back from work. Laughing

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mikeyh



Location : Dordogne France

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:33 am

Work? On a bank holiday?

mikey
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:26 pm

mikeyh wrote:
Work? On a bank holiday?

mikey
Oh yes....and it's not a proper bank holiday anymore...Some lycées were open for admin today...pre-baccalauréat, which starts this week.

Back to serious business.

I built this running test bed with nitro engine and BLDC motor driving a 12v dc traction motor.



Plus points were:
Simple operation, very easy to start and operate with a single channel 27 Mhz (Playmobil) radio control. No fancy electrics. I even managed to reduce the rectifier down to miniature 1 amp rectifier diodes. No switches or ESCs just the servo mounted reverser PCB.

Small and compact, easily fitted into 100 mm wide 200 long x 120 high, and I could even queeze into a smaller space.

Easily contructed and maintainable.

Negative points so far were:
Terrible radio glitching mostly caused by the body and steel mesh that I used. Clutch slipping badly due to plastic clutch shoes which need to be replaced with alloy ones.

It really needs to be driven on both axles especially in the wet as today.

Exhaust needs some more damping down. It is a wooden box that is designed to be partly filled with foam
sponge which haven't done yet. But then I don't care too much about the noise...that's all part of it anyway.

I tried to use another BLDC motor as a traction motor but this proved inadequate in handling the torque required to drive a geared axle. More experimenting with different motors is required.



The simple body was made from ply and alluminium and has a hint of Wickham railcar about it.

So all in all it is an exercise in simplicity, lots of improvements to do but the aim is to create a simple IC module that could fit into a variety of different applications.

There will be some vid of it running shortly.


Last edited by Carl Hibbs on Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Here's the vid.
Not top quality dodging the monsoons today.

As you can see, lots of radio glitching, clutch slipping and wheel slipping too. buts lots of smelly exhaust smoke too...nearly as good as steam... Laughing

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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:16 pm

well done, loved the smoke.

_________________
Wake me up by noon please.

Patrick
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KleineDicke



Location : Deep in the Heart of Texas (Houston)

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:16 am

Pretty neat. Lots of smoke and noise. Nice job.

_________________
Bill Wray

"It is one of the happiest characteristics
of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably
regarded as unanswerable."
-Sir Joseph Porter, First Lord of the Admiralty (HMS Pinafore)
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