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 Live diesel 2

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KleineDicke




PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:16 am

Pretty neat. Lots of smoke and noise. Nice job.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:11 am

Well done Carl, this looks and sounds very impressive. I was also thinking of a universal IC unit that would fit into different types of locos, but i was struggling with size. seams you have found the perfect way to produce such a machine in a small and compact way Very Happy.
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antonr91



Location : south-east England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:20 am

I am also very interested in how you make the bodies for your lococs as this is the part which i am worst at....could you give info and photos perhaps of the build process of the shell for your diesels? Very Happy
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:18 am

Thanks, but it is far from perfect yet. This was just the first time out on the track.

Although it works in principal I have a couple of problems to sort out.

I changed the gear ratio, clutch to BLDC motor which put more load on the nitro engine and has worn the plastic clutch shoes. This I found is a known problem with racing cars and most people replace them with alloy ones which I'm waiting for.

The servo glitches when the BLDC motor is running (I wrongly thought this was caused by metal in the body) making the throttle difficult to control. I haven't found an ideal solution for that yet. With a DC motor one could put a capacitor suppressor in parallel to avoid electrical interference but a BLDC motor needs some thought.

The body is simply constructed of well-sanded 4mm ply with an aluminium roof, glued and pinned together.

I'm not going to bother very much with more noise suppression at the moment. I know it can be done but I quite like the rasping exhaust and it actually whistles a bit at high revs rather like a turbocharger..... Rolling Eyes

My ultimate aim is to replace the DC traction motor with a small BLDC motor and thus a direct 3 phase connection to the generator.
I am waiting for some more motors from Hong Kong so I can test further.

I think it possible with careful planning to fit this module in very small area. I will try and draw a plan of the equipment and its relative space.

I have also aquired a nice .12 Thunder Tiger pull start car engine new on e bay for 49€ and this will form the basis of a third scale model as mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
I now have the right size bogies from the U.S.

I want to try also fitting this module into a Billard railcar shell.

A busy, noisy, smelly 'diesel' summer in progress. Laughing

Visitors welcome!


Last edited by Carl Hibbs on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:20 pm

Carl - are you using the pull start ? Just that somewhere I am sure you wrote that it put a strain on the engine if it was connected to anything, has this been sorted by using the gears.

Gliching ! I had a playmo R/c that always gave me problems, I thought it was the metal track should have tried it on the plastic track I suppose , in the end I took it all out.

For those not "in the loop" (me) I suspect the technical side is a bit hard to follow but keep it up anyway, I don't think it can really be explained any simpler.

Regarding : Whistling exhaust, reminisces about twittering beetles and "goldies", anyone remember those ?

And how did you make the "potentiometer" ?

_________________
Wake me up by noon please.

Patrick
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:02 pm

Yes I am using the pull start Patrick. It is ok if there is a clutch fitted to the engine because on start up the clutch is disengaged and you are only pulling the engine itself. The pull starters break quite easily with any extra load or even a stiff/hydraulic locked engine.

Now that my Kyosho engine is mostly run-in it starts with just a couple of light pulls.

The clutch engages at about 3000+ rpm or should do with good plates.

I will try and keep things simple in text and perhaps some drawings might be more enlightening and interesting... geek

Quote :
And how did you make the "potentiometer" ?
....What potentiometer?....
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:43 pm

mmmmmmmmmmmmm what potentiometer indeed ????? I think i was a bit confused about that copper clad bit with the servo on it - after RTFM again I understand that it is a reverser thing.

Another question - I see the playmo tranny but are you using some other type of Rx and did the crystal fit straight in.


_________________
Wake me up by noon please.

Patrick
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:18 pm

Ah the potentiometer...I suppose it could be one with different resistive segments to it.

The Playmobil tx is useful because it is single channel and has a non-sprung rotary control. Playmobil use standard 26/27mhz am crystals so any suitable receiver will do and be compatible.
It has sufficient range for most gardens!
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:14 am

As a further development I notice that Accucraft are reintroducing the Baguely 0-6-0 (030 here...) diesel with a metal chassis.



And this new motorised metal chassis will be available separately later this year and can be ordered from
Track Shack

This chassis would be ideally suitable for a metre gauge box cab loco from the Tramway Deux Sevres built by Brissoneau et Lotz.



This too has a 030(correctly 0C0) jackshaft drive with outside frames. I have plans and drawings and the real one still exists at the MTVS
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:01 am

Problems...Discovered something today, not being a professional engineer!

I was concerned why the clutch shoes had all but worn out after changing the gear ratio between clutch bell and BLDC motor.
It was - clutch bell 15 tooth/motor 21 tooth, now (to run engine at lower speed) clutch bell 15T/motor 13T.

So on further investigation the gear meshing didn't feel or look quite right.

The gears I have been using for the BLDC motor are termed 'module 1' which is a (rather complex) metric measurement of gear pitch.

The clutch bell gear is 32dp which is an imperial measurement of gear pitch equalling 32 teeth on a gear of 1 inch diameter.

My clutch bell gear has 15 teeth and is about 1/2" diameter and is thus a 32dp pitch confirmed as most popular small engine clutch bell gears are this pitch I found out...!

So...the 21 tooth, 'module 1' gear is by chance very similar to a '32dp gear' but the 13 tooth 'module 1' gear is a little out on pitch and causing a bit of vibration and strain on the clutch.

If you don't follow any of this then don't worry! The upshot is I need correctly meshing gears for the engine and motor.
I found a supplier in the UK on e bay:

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/rc*hop*up5/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:38 am

Clutch plates and more parts came today, just need gears to arrive to progress further.

Worthy of mention is a supplier in Hong Kong I've used 3 times now.

RCTimer

Excellent service, reasonable prices and free shipping, 7 days delivery from online order.

I have just bought another batch of BLDC motors from them to play with.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:50 pm

Took the clutch apart today and.......



You can see the plastic shoes worn and carbonised. This set has now been replaced with the blue alloy shoes. I have yet to try it as I have been too busy with other bits.

Notably this:



A simple chassis with a small BLDC motor driving a single axle through a worm drive. Radio control battery power via a 30 amp brushless ESC. Works very well but....Although you can program the ESC using a complex set of tones emitted from the ESC and transmitter joy stick position with things like 'soft start' there is no reverse....These are designed for aero applications...cyclops
I will get round that somehow.

This is a test building block in eventually getting the nitro engine to power this chassis direct.
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:00 am

Stupid question from the fat bloke at the back....
The only practical solution for reversing I've seen so far is Bills DPDT switch glued to a servo.
Thinking about it though, could you use two esc's back to back - ie one working from mid stick -> up, and the other mid stick -> down ? There would have to be some diodes somewhere to stop things getting messed up, and it pre-supposes that you can wire two esc's in parallel to the receiver.
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:17 am

Hi Dave,

I'm still getting to know these programmable ESCs and they are very intelligent.
They synchronise to the transmitter you are using. The one I have doesn't (appear to) function from a mid-stick position despite me trying different things.

I expect there are suitable brushless ESCs with a programmable reverse made for electric cars, trucks and such.

I only really want to test the operation of the motors. I am interested to see how much current they draw and the voltage/speed ratio under load.

For reversing you can buy receiver operated solid state switches now and use these as a DPDT reverse switch if I need but then that of course uses another channel and more electrics.

Ultimately I just want the output from a large BLDC motor generator to power one or more smaller BLDC traction motors direct with no ESC.
3 phase to 3 phase.

bom
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:47 am

Further development and progress.

Firstly I had it wrong about these gears, It was just slight parallel misalignement that was causing the teeth to wear not different gear pitch..
The clutch bell gear is in fact module 1 but correct meshing and little play is important.

The new clutch shoes work fine but engage quite quickly at the moment.

The exhaust with foam is okay but after about 15 mins the foam inside the box chamber becomes a sticky mess with the heat and oil.

The low speed is very controllable just by using engine revs...no ESC....!
This is still driving a DC motored chassis.

I have cured some of the glitching but there are still some difficulties beyond about 3 metres.

The traction motor/gearbox whine is as audible as the exhaust.

Here's the latest exciting film.

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:58 pm

I tried some further development with the BLDC generator driving a smaller BLDC traction motor. Although this works of a sort in practice under load it is not perfect enough yet.

To ‘energise’ the traction motor you have to start the generator very very slowly (like slipping the clutch of a car) otherwise they seem to go out of phase and transmission is lost with both motors tending to heat up.

There is some electronics here that I don’t understand fully and I need an oscilloscope to study further. So for the time being this part of the project is shelved until time allows and I will concentrate on BLDC generator driving DC traction motor.

I got fed up with the poor performance of the home-made, single-driven-axle chassis and thus rebuilt the machine on top of a long- wheelbase Aristocraft motor bogie unit.



I made some minor engine improvements (idling speed/mixture) and eliminated more glitching by keeping the antenna from moving and changing the receiver battery pack.

As result we had a test run today and I was very pleased. The performance is excellent. The noise too is where I want to be with the wooden baffle box.

There are still some small issues to resolve; clutch is biting too early, the (homemade tin) fuel tank now has a miniscule leak and the body needs modifying to fit the new chassis.

….But it is starting to become a reliable and enjoyable machine and thoughts of ‘number 3’ replicant are well advanced. Exclamation

The latest film clip:



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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:00 pm

Whilst working on number 3 there was some unfished work here.

A new fuel tank in styrene and butyrate which didn't like nitro fuel...and a third hastily made fom brass sufficed.

Now using a 2.4Ghz RC system - cost less than 20$ from Hobbyking, fantastic, no glitching whatsoever and the receiver is miniscule.

Plus some simple side frames and this machine which has served as a test bed is just about finished. I can almost put the tools away.... Laughing

There are few minor things to sort out like the clutch shoes need tuning a bit, but this locomotive is just about ready for exhibition work.

A good run of about 10 laps today.

Here are some video clips.





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Paulus



Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:26 pm

Carl, it really runs as beautiful as it looks!
Can't say how it sounds because my PC soundcard has problems...

_________________
Paul pirat
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dufrok



Location : Ireland

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:41 pm

Looks really well Carl.

Is that a Kyosho engine?

Last question, It seems to be very quiet (for a nitro engine) any comments?

Very impressive!!
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:00 pm

Yes Liam, it is a Kyosho .12 (about 2cc), Anton has used one too.

They are pretty good for their size and after running in are quite controllable and responsive.

The noise is quite easy to damp down although I like it.

I run the exhaust from a manifold pipe into the top of a plywood box. The exhaust tail pipe extends down to the bottom of the box with about a 6mm gap. Pretty simple really like the builder..... geek

There is also a bit of transmission noise from the clutch/ BLDC motor engagement.

Best listened to with some HQ headphones and the sound turned up full, a glass of wine, close your eyes.... Razz drunken






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clive_t



Location : Portsmouth, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:06 pm

Nice vids, Carl. How's the ballast holding up? I noticed a couple of places on the 'ride-on' vid where the picture seemed to vibrate a bit - is that some ballast sitting a bit proud, or vibration from the loco itself?

Neat little loco mate - not much clag though, can't see that smoking the neighbours out at Expo!

_________________
Cheers,

Clive

Fat Controller of the S&CGR

http://www.scampington-chipside.co.uk
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:15 pm

The camera was just sat across the wagon sides and the vibration is from my dodgy trackwork and the solid riding nature of the Accucraft wagons.

The loco and engine don't vibrate much at all as the engine/generator assembly baseplate has part of a mouse mat between it and the motor bogie as suspension.
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pjti



Location : Galizano, nr Santander, Nth Spain

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:29 pm

A superb demonstration Carl, I am warming to these things at last, love the slow speed control. It's a lovely model well done.

_________________
Wake me up by noon please.

Patrick
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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:11 am

Thank you.

It's all a question of evolution and development except it rather happened in reverse.
It was 4 years ago now ( already Shocked ) that the green monster hit the track and I thought everything had to be complicated because that's what it should be.

But technology has advanced (and become cheaper from China pirat ), refined engines, brushless motors and 2.4Ghz radio which have made things simpler.

The slow speed is purely by controlling the engine throttle, no ESC and only using 1 channel of the radio.

It is possible to make it even smoother by increasing the gear ratio clutch to motor- generator at the loss of higher speed.

I think now that it may even be possible to remove the clutch altogether and just put a small gear direct on the drive shaft of the engine with a larger gear on a small BLDC motor which would be quite light to turn (with the pull starter).

The only disadvantage with using 1 channel and no ESC is that you can't rev up the engine separately beyond about 2,500-3,000 rpm when the clutch engages and the BLDC starts producing electricity. Although for testing I suppose a simple on/off switch could be fitted before the traction motor.

A very similar power unit will be used in the new locomotive...number 3.
...and then there will be a 'number 4' (Tramway de Deux Sevres) later this year on based on an Accucraft 060 diesel chassis.

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Carl Hibbs
Admin


Location : Haute Normandie - visitors welcome

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:27 am

I am often asked for information, about resources, suppliers and manufacturers etc..

My aim is to eventually create a live diesel reference web page on this forum which I will probably complete during the darker evenings.

Until then you will just have to trawl through these threads.... study

Here's another good supplier.

I needed a proper new fuel tank for this project and earlier this week found this:
Ben Buckle Fuel Tank.
It arrived today from Ben Buckle, excellent service, a good product and very cheap.

This is a very small 55 ml tank, 31mm wide and suits my need perfectly.

I don't need large tanks anyway as most of the time the engine is running at low throttle speeds plus I don't like leaving large quantities of fuel in the locomotive.
Although he does sell a 170ml tank for thirsty engines!
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dtsteam



Location : Preston, England

PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:01 pm

Time to flaunt my ignorance again.... why are there three pipes in the fuel tank ? and how long a run are you hoping for ?
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PostSubject: Re: Live diesel 2   Today at 4:33 pm

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